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Tubeless Solution

90K views 142 replies 62 participants last post by  skimmer 
#1 ·
#4 ·
Interesting differing views. I guess I probably err on the side of the manufacturer, purely because I can't believe they'd make those claims if it wasn't true, because as Skip points out it is a safety critical concern.


I know one of the beauties of the Honda is it's keen price point over the techno-p*rn MTS12 and R12GS. and it has to remain competitive with it's more natural competition of Tiger 800 XRX and F800GS. But I think most of us would have preferred to have stomached a slightly higher OTR price if the wheels had stainless spokes that exited the edge of the rim like the GS / Super Tenere / MTS Enduro. It's not just the easier puncture handling, but the wider choice of pure road rubber (for anyone who doesn't want to get their AT dirty) and even cosmetically.


Can it be long before Excel wheels with stainless spokes and Talon hubs are being offered in kit form - specifically for the AT - whether you want to SuperMotard it, or actually treat it as roughly as all those lovely PR vids that whet our appetites, or simply have a dedicated set of road and off road wheels? I'll take some gold rims with black spokes please :-D
 
#7 ·
I noticed in another post that you said you made the change to tubeless tires. I'd be curious to learn more. Have you posted anything about it on the forum? A how-to would be awesome.
 
#17 ·
Outex Tubeless



Nemesis, did it work? My experience of looking into it below.

I sent my Wheels to Central Wheel Components Limited who are specialists in wheel building http://www.central-wheel.co.uk/ who stock and fit the OUTEX system. Unfortunately after much discussion they considered it would not be safe - for them without changing the spokes - to convert the wheels to tubeless. Not for the reasons you might think. It was nothing to do with the seating of the tyre. Look at photo.
Before they apply the Outex tape they would grind down the tops of the spokes to make it as flat and smooth as possible before sealing with the tape. The problem lies with the way the spokes are fitted, they are seated with a washer and at an angle. Should any filing down take place it may harm the integrity of the spoke. Central Wheels are specialists that only build spoked wheels.
You may wonder that you could apply the tape without altering the spokes. That may be possible but look at the photos and you can see the potential re sharp edges etc. It is one thing for an individual to take a chance but very different for a company to be liable for the risk of the conversion.
Richard Hoyland, the director of the company could not be more helpful in explaining matters and using all of the company's technical experience.
What he did say might be possible is to cut the spokes and replace them with new ones that don't use a washer. They couldn't say for certain until they have a wheel to convert because of the rare angle that the spoke sits. Anyway it would get rid of the potential corrosion issue everyone has mentioned.
If I can lay my hands on a spare set (anyone selling?) I will put them in for an experiment to see if it will work.

Hope the above was of some use.
 

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#14 ·
Just happened to look at the Tubliss option today, exchanged a few emails and got some answers, very helpful.

What do I now know:
The rear Tubliss is to narrow for our rims.
They are for off-road use only.

So why can't I put one in the front? If the tyre punctured it would stay on the rim. What is the worry with using it on the road?
 
#16 ·
So, speculating that Honda will probably offer a tubeless rim at some time in the future, I concluded that the most likely tyre option based on available tyres would be Pirelli Scorpion Trails:
Front (1726600) 90/90 H 21 (54H) TL
Rear (2031600) 150/70 R 18 (70V) TL

and if currently bought at Motoblouz:
front = £62.95 and rear = £93.39

or have I got this totally wrong?
 
#25 · (Edited)
These Alpina wheels look nice - tubeless spoked aluminum. About $2000 though for a pair. I would be happy to offer my unbiased review in exchange for a complimentary set.

http://www.alpina-wheels.com/shop/honda/honda-africa-twin/
So, speculating that Honda will probably offer a tubeless rim at some time in the future, I concluded that the most likely tyre option based on available tyres would be Pirelli Scorpion Trails:
Front (1726600) 90/90 H 21 (54H) TL
Rear (2031600) 150/70 R 18 (70V) TL

and if currently bought at Motoblouz:
front = £62.95 and rear = £93.39

or have I got this totally wrong?


Hey Sinclair and Mike, to answer both of you.....

I am setting up Martins AT for his Australian Tour, and we decided on the Alpina Tubeless rims, here are some pics. Rims are black everything. We did a lot of research and i did end up on this forum a few times, so i thought it would be good to post up some pics and down the track we can give some feedback. Original rims are brand new and unused.
I can tell you that after doing a 160km run last night up the old Pacific Hwy from Sydney to Gosford and back that the Tubeless Pirelli Scorpion Trails make this bike handle and ride extremely well! They tip in nicely, hold the line well, dont track on cracks and changes in road surface, and make it easy to change your line in the middle of a corner with ease and confidence.

cheers
Kiwimat
 

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#19 ·
What is the obsession with tubeless rims about, please? Is this a concern mostly for people that won't be riding off-road, reducing their tyre choice (in which case, just get an 'adventure' bike like a GS)? Or are people worried about their unsprung weight (in which case get a Panigale with carbon rims)?

I can't think of any reason why I would choose tubeless to go off-road on mine.
 
#20 ·
I use my bike 250 days a year to commute to work.
When I have a flat with a tubeless tire, I'm 15 minutes late.
If I have a flat with a tube, I'll be having a lot of explaining to do when I eventually arrive at work...

Statements like 'get a GS instead' I find a bit ridiculous and besides the point.

It's perfectly sensible for some people to prefer tubeless and therefor discus possible solutions to -at least for some of us- improve our bikes.
 
#23 ·
I take it Snowbubble's experience/post wasn't an issue for you? Or if it was how did you resolve it?

I sent my Wheels to Central Wheel Components Limited who are specialists in wheel building http://www.central-wheel.co.uk/ who stock and fit the OUTEX system. Unfortunately after much discussion they considered it would not be safe - for them without changing the spokes - to convert the wheels to tubeless. Not for the reasons you might think. It was nothing to do with the seating of the tyre. Look at photo.
Before they apply the Outex tape they would grind down the tops of the spokes to make it as flat and smooth as possible before sealing with the tape. The problem lies with the way the spokes are fitted, they are seated with a washer and at an angle. Should any filing down take place it may harm the integrity of the spoke. Central Wheels are specialists that only build spoked wheels.
You may wonder that you could apply the tape without altering the spokes. That may be possible but look at the photos and you can see the potential re sharp edges etc. It is one thing for an individual to take a chance but very different for a company to be liable for the risk of the conversion.
Richard Hoyland, the director of the company could not be more helpful in explaining matters and using all of the company's technical experience.
What he did say might be possible is to cut the spokes and replace them with new ones that don't use a washer. They couldn't say for certain until they have a wheel to convert because of the rare angle that the spoke sits. Anyway it would get rid of the potential corrosion issue everyone has mentioned.
If I can lay my hands on a spare set (anyone selling?) I will put them in for an experiment to see if it will work.

Hope the above was of some use.
 
#28 ·
So Kiwimat, why didnt you just buy a road bike then? What happens when you get a bad dent on your rim off-road or where you going for the SM look with no off-road requirements? Serious question, not taking the piss.
 
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#29 · (Edited)
Firstly, i dont buy or set up motorcycles for "the look" so lets rule that out, and this bike is still good for a gravel road if needed.
This bike is not for me, it is for a friend coming to here to ride around australia, and this guy has done a lot of research, and ridden lots of different bikes, and knows exactly what sort of bike he wanted to do 25,000km on in 3 months, and how he wanted it setup for that purpose. This is a road trip, not a bush bash.
The only drawback of the Honda AT was the tubed tyres and rims, Martin wasnt keen to get stuck on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere in australia and have to pull wheels, tyres and tubes out to fix a puncture, im sure for some of you guys that ok, but the quick tubeless tyre rope or mushroom repair was the main idea.
We also plan to sell the bike when he is done, and this bike, with all the goodies already on it, plus the spare set of rims, should be easier than most bikes to sell and should fetch a fair price. 3 months ago there was still a waiting list for the Honda AT in Australia, and even now, the current stock is leaving the showrooms very fast.
Did i mention the Honda Africa Twin is an amazing bike to ride and will easily smash 25,000km of various road surface touring, but you know that, serious comment, not taking the piss.......
and if he does get a bad enough dent in his rim..( hope not) we fix it, if its too fckt up, i have a spare set of rims in my garage.
 
#31 ·
I'm having woodys wheel works converting my rear rim to tubelss. There saying they wont do front rim because they are not a safety rim, (I guess there is a lip on the inside of the rim that keeps the tire from coming off if you get a flat)
I had this done on my gs f800 and never had a problem
 
#34 ·
I've had the outex kit laying around for a while now and with the tires needing replacement I got around to fitting the kit.
I did both rear and front, since both where included in the kit.
It was a pit fiddly and took a couple of hours, but I'm glad the tape is in place.
Now at least when I have a flat I should be on the road again within a couple of minutes.

The materials seem of a decent quality and the instructions included are very clear.
I gave the rims a proper clean and used a bit of sanding paper to smooth down one spot on both the rims where I suppose they are welded in the factory.
It probably wouldn't have really mattered since it was nicely between two spokes anyway.

After giving the inside of the rim a wipe down with brake cleaner I heated the surface up with a hairdryer, fitted the pre-cut nipple pieces followed by a double sided tape, which you really have only one chance at doing wright.
It looks a bit wrinkly at first, but up close you can see that the tape material is actually quite soft and glue-like so it adheres really well.
After that I pulled of the film on the double sided tape and put on the protective layer.
This is a noticeably tougher layer that, I suppose, could protect the first layer from being damaged during a puncture.

the valves are included and the valve for the front rim has a thicker rubber washer to compensate for the curve in the shape of the rim.
While fitting the tire I wasn't particularly careful but I did use quite a lot of tire soap to make the process as smooth as possible.
The next couple of days will tell me whether the tape will hold air, but I'm pretty confident it will.

As far as the lack of 'safety hump' on the front wheel, I don't really care.
As far as I can think, having a puncture with or without a tube won't make a difference in that aspect.
If I notice any problems I'll be sure to keep you guys posted.

Here's some pics from the whole process:
(Only pics from the rear since I was running out of time and had to hurry...)

Double sided tape:

Using the gloves that are included make it a lot easier:

A blunt object helps to get out the occasional air bubble:


The protective layer:


The tape can't overlap, you have to cover the remaining gap with a 2nd patch:



All done, with new tires fitted:

 
#35 ·
I wanted to try tubeless rims and tires, looked aplina rims but did not like all the o-rings, I have replaced lots of rims with the spokes nipples being really lose and the nipples ready to pull out of the rim, it is because of lack care, [I worked at a bike shop for 40 plus years] but still all those little o-rings, and the tape, with no bead lip, not for me. I am going to try a set of kineo rims, I like the rims, with the i beam in the center for extra stiffness [less front&rear rim bending from rock damage] only one hole in it for the valve stem. Good size spokes, and spoke&nipples ends. Not on the bike right now but next week I hope. Some pic's of them, I went with black hubs and rims silver spokes and ends, to make it look more stock, I am not a bling Guy.
 

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#36 ·
Nice looking rims, price?

I'm a diy kind of guy so have been doing research on what people have been doing with sealant and stuff. Came across a guy who sealed each spoke nipple with two types of sealant and claims over 100k miles with no issues on three bikes. Here's a link for his process:
https://cyb.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/KTM/Tubeless/i-mT2KWZM

I tried this method this weekend with poor results despite taking great care to duplicate his instructions to the T. Had one spoke leak on the front and five on the rear. The sealants get tons of microbubbles in them as they dry and cure, sometime creating larger bubbles if they blend. Spent most of today removing all the adhesive since my confidence in this method was not very high after seeing the results.

So, on to the next...

Found a thread on a Ducati forum and this looks more promising. These guys are using 3M4412N Extreme Seal Tape with excellent results over a year and half of updating their thread.

Link to Ducati thread: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/457634-gt1000-3m-tape-tubeless-conversion.html

Link to tape: https://www.amazon.com/3M-4412N-Extreme-Sealing-Tape/dp/B00R2RNQOG#customerReviews

My order comes tomorrow, ordered the 5m roll. so I'll post up impression after the install. Ordered the 2.5 in.. width since it's on sale, otherwise probably the 2" (50mm) would work well.
 
#37 ·
Update:
Now have two rides on the conversion with the 3M Extreme Sealant Tape, covered about 400 miles so far and really pleased with the results. No air loss, turn-in is a little easier/lighter and I could be wrong on this but the ride seems slightly smoother. Will continue to report as the miles add up. Now I'm looking for a decent street tire. Based on feedback here, it seems to be the Conti Trail Attack 2 followed closely by the Mitas E07 (surprisingly).
 
#38 · (Edited)
Update:
Now have about 1k miles on the conversion and still holding air. I've installed a set of Conti TA2s. In the process of installing the new tires I knicked the tape and had to put a patch over the tear. So a word of caution about doing this with either the 3M tape or the Outex kit, be very careful with your tools! Also made me realize I should carry a small length of tape in the tool kit just in case.

The Conti is a heavier front tire than the stock Dunlop so steering requires a little more effort but the new tires handle fantastic. Had a chance to really try then out this past two weeks and the AT can definitely be hustled through the twisties. The bike felt rock solid at a very quick pace.
 
#39 ·
I have the Outex kit waiting for my first set of new tyres.
I thought it was way expensive when I opened the box I'm sure you could source the parts for 1/4 of that price but being here in Thailand as I don't read or speak Thai it's just too difficult a task to make my own kit so I just bought it.
I'd like to hear others experiences. Personally I think it's no big issue fixing a tube puncture but it's a case of having to carry more spares everywhere.
 
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