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Discussion Starter #42
Whilst those last few posts are interesting, they do relate to performance at the extreme end, whereas my desire is to make my Africa Twin behave like a pussycat - or rather like my Triumph Rocket 3, which despite having three 800 cc pistons slapping up and down, has virtually zero engine braking. I have no idea how they do this and I can't agree with (or understand probably) some of the technical explanations put forwards by others as to how Triumph do it or how Honda have implemented it on the Africa Twin.
However, I think the article about racing bikes may give the clue. These days they reduce the engine braking by continuing to provide some fuel even though the throttle is closed. Since there are no exhaust valves that could be lifted as per the diesel engine description, it's likely that Honda are adopting the fuel-in approach.
And this may explain why there's hardly any difference between the 3 modes - they still need to pass the euro emissions tests. And as I understand it the manufacturers do that by cutting emissions at low throttle settings (the weakened mixture and jerky running through towns of nearly all new bikes is probably down to this). So it's unlikely that they could put the AT though the tests at say engine braking level 1 (no fuel being added on closed throttle), but allow the rider to permanently run it (as I do) with level 3 set and fuel being added on the overrun.
It would be very nice if a Honda engineer could answer this but maybe they would set a new worldwide rabbit running similar to the VW scandal :eek:
Mike
And btw I agree that the difference between the 3 settings is slight
 

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Whilst those last few posts are interesting, they do relate to performance at the extreme end, whereas my desire is to make my Africa Twin behave like a pussycat - or rather like my Triumph Rocket 3, which despite having three 800 cc pistons slapping up and down, has virtually zero engine braking. I have no idea how they do this and I can't agree with (or understand probably) some of the technical explanations put forwards by others as to how Triumph do it or how Honda have implemented it on the Africa Twin.
However, I think the article about racing bikes may give the clue. These days they reduce the engine braking by continuing to provide some fuel even though the throttle is closed. Since there are no exhaust valves that could be lifted as per the diesel engine description, it's likely that Honda are adopting the fuel-in approach.
And this may explain why there's hardly any difference between the 3 modes - they still need to pass the euro emissions tests. And as I understand it the manufacturers do that by cutting emissions at low throttle settings (the weakened mixture and jerky running through towns of nearly all new bikes is probably down to this). So it's unlikely that they could put the AT though the tests at say engine braking level 1 (no fuel being added on closed throttle), but allow the rider to permanently run it (as I do) with level 3 set and fuel being added on the overrun.
It would be very nice if a Honda engineer could answer this but maybe they would set a new worldwide rabbit running similar to the VW scandal :eek:
Mike
And btw I agree that the difference between the 3 settings is slight
I don't disagree that the article relates mostly to performance at the extreme end. I did think it gave some valuable clues to what was happening with the Engine Braking settings on modern throttle by wire bikes. I thought it made sense in the overall context of how the Africa Twin Levels are set up with both Power and Engine braking having little to no intervention from the electronics at Level 1 and the most intervention at Level 3, resulting in least power, least engine braking effect.

I have have had a number of Triumphs, but have never ridden a Rocket III It is interesting to know that massive powerplant has almost no engine braking effect. I understand the Kawasaki V-Strom 1000 is at the opposite end of the scale and has significant engine braking. Too much by some people's estimate. I wonder if it is a bit of the nature of the Triumph triple or if Triumph has done a little magic with the electronics where Kawasaki has maybe not?
 

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Suzuki V-Strom. :)

I reckon you didn't mean the Kawasaki Versys?

... I understand the Kawasaki V-Strom 1000 is at the opposite end of the scale and has significant engine braking. Too much by some people's estimate. I wonder if it is a bit of the nature of the Triumph triple or if Triumph has done a little magic with the electronics where Kawasaki has maybe not?
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I had a kawasaki versys 650 and the engine braking was dreadful (much too strong) - it made the ride incredibly tiring. And yes I have wondered if it is in the nature of triples to have less inherent engine braking. But I rode a mate's Yamaha Tracer 900cc triple and I think that had plenty of engine braking.
Mike
 

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Yes. Unloading the rear could definitely result in some "bucking" effect.

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Hey Cuch - thanks for the initial post. I'm not sure I agree with the author about the so-called value of engine braking at the level of MotoGP though. Know that I watch this sport religiously - I'm a big Marquez fanboy. Heavy braking into a corner today in MotoGP is almost 100% a front tire affair. If you watch closely, you'll notice the rear tire floating just above the pavement for most of the top performers. This is basically a coordinated 3-D stoppie into the final shot for the apex - gorgeous to behold. Rossi was the very first rider I can remember who started pulling this off routinely. He would kick his inside leg off the peg, grab a handful of front brake and balance the bike onto its front tire, and slow enough to make the turn into the apex for a clean, fast corner. The bike cannot be ridden any faster than that! Today, almost everyone's doing it.

What's interesting is the fact that their rear tire keeps spinning when it's not in contact so their dry clutch is in and the rear brake doesn't appear to be active.

This is not to detract from engine braking which is a big plus for the AT. I use it all the time. I'm sure many others do as well. You just need to make sure your rear tire is on the ground for it to work...:D

 
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I don't disagree that the article relates mostly to performance at the extreme end. I did think it gave some valuable clues to what was happening with the Engine Braking settings on modern throttle by wire bikes. I thought it made sense in the overall context of how the Africa Twin Levels are set up with both Power and Engine braking having little to no intervention from the electronics at Level 1 and the most intervention at Level 3, resulting in least power, least engine braking effect.

I have have had a number of Triumphs, but have never ridden a Rocket III It is interesting to know that massive powerplant has almost no engine braking effect. I understand the Kawasaki V-Strom 1000 is at the opposite end of the scale and has significant engine braking. Too much by some people's estimate. I wonder if it is a bit of the nature of the Triumph triple or if Triumph has done a little magic with the electronics where Kawasaki has maybe not?
I had 1994 Triumph Trophy with the 900 triple. It had lots of engine braking to the point of having too much in some situations. It also had carbs, no fuel injection. I also found the triples to have a great abundance of torque whenever needed on the street.
 

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Hey Cuch - thanks for the initial post. I'm not sure I agree with the author about the so-called value of engine braking at the level of MotoGP though. Know that I watch this sport religiously - I'm a big Marquez fanboy. Heavy braking into a corner today in MotoGP is almost 100% a front tire affair. If you watch closely, you'll notice the rear tire floating just above the pavement for most of the top performers. This is basically a coordinated 3-D stoppie into the final shot for the apex - gorgeous to behold. Rossi was the very first rider I can remember who started pulling this off routinely. He would kick his inside leg off the peg, grab a handful of front brake and balance the bike onto its front tire, and slow enough to make the turn into the apex for a clean, fast corner. The bike cannot be ridden any faster than that! Today, almost everyone's doing it.

What's interesting is the fact that their rear tire keeps spinning when it's not in contact so their dry clutch is in and the rear brake doesn't appear to be active.

This is not to detract from engine braking which is a big plus for the AT. I use it all the time. I'm sure many others do as well. You just need to make sure your rear tire is on the ground for it to work...:D
I don't doubt you are correct. The author was corrected on a couple of points in the comments below and you would have the knowledge to correct him even further from the sound of it.

I posted it mostly for its content on how the engine braking effect is modified with ride by wire bikes such as our AT. None of this is an area I have any knowledge in, so found the idea interesting :)

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Whilst those last few posts are interesting, they do relate to performance at the extreme end, whereas my desire is to make my Africa Twin behave like a pussycat - or rather like my Triumph Rocket 3, which despite having three 800 cc pistons slapping up and down, has virtually zero engine braking. I have no idea how they do this and I can't agree with (or understand probably) some of the technical explanations put forwards by others as to how Triumph do it or how Honda have implemented it on the Africa Twin.
However, I think the article about racing bikes may give the clue. These days they reduce the engine braking by continuing to provide some fuel even though the throttle is closed. Since there are no exhaust valves that could be lifted as per the diesel engine description, it's likely that Honda are adopting the fuel-in approach.
And this may explain why there's hardly any difference between the 3 modes - they still need to pass the euro emissions tests. And as I understand it the manufacturers do that by cutting emissions at low throttle settings (the weakened mixture and jerky running through towns of nearly all new bikes is probably down to this). So it's unlikely that they could put the AT though the tests at say engine braking level 1 (no fuel being added on closed throttle), but allow the rider to permanently run it (as I do) with level 3 set and fuel being added on the overrun.
It would be very nice if a Honda engineer could answer this but maybe they would set a new worldwide rabbit running similar to the VW scandal :eek:
Mike
And btw I agree that the difference between the 3 settings is slight
You got me thinking, having now played with all three settings, my EB retardation (when used at same speed and gear) seems slightly better on 3 than 1. I think I've been the victim of the marketing department, again!
 

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I suppose if somebody really wanted to have a definitive answer on if it's one or three on the engine braking is the most .You could go to the same hill put the bike and first gear and go down the hill with the settings at each level.
 

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Correct. Per the manual page 65:

EB Value (Engine Brake Level)
EB value has three setting levels.
Available setting range 1-3
-> Level 1 has the strongest engine braking effect
-> Level 3 has the weakest engine braking effect.

It could be that I need a new seat in my pants, but my seat of the pants testing tells me that the manual is correct.

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This is very interesting. I'm 100% sure Level 1 is the weakest. I can't explain it but if you could ride my bike you would agree. Level 3 will slow my bike on a closed throttle considerably more than level 1. Maybe at some point in production things got mixed up for half a minute? Doesn't sound like Honda but there's enough examples of this setting to be backwards.
 
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