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2022 CRF1100 ATAS ES DCT
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Previously I had a 2021 AT DCT and thought the engine braking to be harsh and changing between the 3 settings had no effect so I always just kept it at 1bar.
When I got the 2022 ATAS DCT I never thought about messing with the engine braking, it was still quite harsh but maybe not quite as bad as the 2021. Yesterday however I changed it to 3 bars and although it was on a short ride I thought there was a noticeable difference but it will need more miles to be sure. Has anyone else noticed this on a 2022 or even had the engine braking working properly/as expected on a 2020/21?
 

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Previously I had a 2021 AT DCT and thought the engine braking to be harsh and changing between the 3 settings had no effect so I always just kept it at 1bar.
When I got the 2022 ATAS DCT I never thought about messing with the engine braking, it was still quite harsh but maybe not quite as bad as the 2021. Yesterday however I changed it to 3 bars and although it was on a short ride I thought there was a noticeable difference but it will need more miles to be sure. Has anyone else noticed this on a 2022 or even had the engine braking working properly/as expected on a 2020/21?
I rode the 2022 demonstrator and changed to gravel which has I think the least engine braking, and also rode in urban which has the most, and yes I noticed the difference - about the same as on my 2019 standard AT .... still too much IMHO even on minimum setting. Can't speak for the 2021 bike I'm afraid.
Mike
 

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That is correct, it seems opposite to the way it should be, usually more is more but in Hondas case more is less :D
P and EB kind of make sense where 1 is most power and most Engine Breaking.

It is the torque control that seems a bit backwards where 1 is the minimum amount of torque control and 0 is off.

But if you concider it from an intervention standpoint where 0 (off) has the least amount of intervention and 7 the most, perhaps all 3 do make sense.


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P and EB kind of make sense where 1 is most power and most Engine Breaking.

It is the torque control that seems a bit backwards where 1 is the minimum amount of torque control and 0 is off.

But if you concider it from an intervention standpoint where 0 (off) has the least amount of intervention and 7 the most, perhaps all 3 do make sense.
The fact that "this" Forum discussion never ends, or the rationalization keeps going in circles seems to imply the Honda human interface psychology team could have done better.

Example: Instead of breaking out "numbers" for the rider, they could have simply done "low", "medium", and "high" sort-of-thing for each individual parameter and let the underlying firmware do whatever translation it needed to do for machine interpretation of the command. That is why software exists.
 

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The fact that "this" Forum discussion never ends, or the rationalization keeps going in circles seems to imply the Honda human interface psychology team could have done better.

Example: Instead of breaking out "numbers" for the rider, they could have simply done "low", "medium", and "high" sort-of-thing for each individual parameter and let the underlying firmware do whatever translation it needed to do for machine interpretation of the command. That is why software exists.
No doubt. Or if not low/med/hi, perhaps a bar graph representation on the dashboard.

The Owners Manual and Service Manual do both tell that 1 is Max power and Max EB, but they do a lousy job of explaining the why's of why it is 1 as Max and not 3.

The short answer for EB, at least from what I understand, is that the EFI bikes can keep the throttle bodies open varying small degrees. This allows a little air in on the intake stroke and reduces the vaccum/engine breaking effect. Setting 1 the throttle bodies are l completely closed and max EB. Settings 2 and 3 open the throttle bodies in small incremental amounts, minimizing the EB somewhat.

I am sure someone here can explain it better than that.

I also find the differences in settings to be minimal on my 2019 ATAS. Maybe that has changed for newer models.


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2022 CRF1100 ATAS ES DCT
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have done quite a few hundred miles now since I wondered if the engine braking was now working as it should on the 2022 models and I can now say for sure that, on mine at least, it is.

Example today, went for a run to pick up some welding consumables, decided to put into Tour mode as normally I use the User settings but I have one set to soft suspension and the other to medium and I wanted to see what hard suspension was like and Tour mode has that.. I did like the suspension setting in Tour but what I didn't like was the engine braking, it was similar to my 2021 AT was (in any EB setting) and if you shut the throttle at anything more than very gradually the EB was quite severe. Changed back to a user mode (3 bar EB) and let go of the throttle and no jolt, just a nice smooth deceleration, just wish there were 3 User modes now :D
 

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2018 Adventure Sports DCT
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The thing about Honda’s numbers is the higher the number the more intrusive it is..
With “P” mode it doesn’t cut the power it inserts ramping to the throttle response, the higher the number the longer the ramp up..
Honda could of avoided this confusion by just a letter, adding a “R” to the “P” for PR = Power Reduction or Power Ramping what ever you prefer..
 

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2022 CRF1100 ATAS ES DCT
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The thing about Honda’s numbers is the higher the number the more intrusive it is..
With “P” mode it doesn’t cut the power it inserts ramping to the throttle response, the higher the number the longer the ramp up..
Honda could of avoided this confusion by just a letter, adding a “R” to the “P” for PR = Power Reduction or Power Ramping what ever you prefer..
Would have been better TR (Throttle Response) but yes the indications are backwards compared to the way most of us would think.

The engine braking settings however just didn't work on the 2021 AT I had, absolutely no difference between 1 (max) and 3 (min) on the 2022 the difference between even 3 and 2 is huge, never actually tested or rather paid attention with it on 1 bar but I will try and remember to test it out next time I get a chance.
 

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2018 Adventure Sports DCT
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Would have been better TR (Throttle Response) but yes the indications are backwards compared to the way most of us would think.

The engine braking settings however just didn't work on the 2021 AT I had, absolutely no difference between 1 (max) and 3 (min) on the 2022 the difference between even 3 and 2 is huge, never actually tested or rather paid attention with it on 1 bar but I will try and remember to test it out next time I get a chance.
I can feel a difference on my 18 but it is not some huge difference,…
 
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2022 CRF1100 ATAS ES DCT
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I am wondering if it was just some because some people don't seem to suffer from the jerky on/off throttle where mine certainly did so maybe the engine braking was similar.
 

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I am wondering if it was just some because some people don't seem to suffer from the jerky on/off throttle where mine certainly did so maybe the engine braking was similar.
My view is that jerkiness/hesitation is greatly amplified by bikes with harsh engine braking. (It’s logically obvious when you think about it.) If true, then this has to be addressed in addition to air fuel ratios at the bottom end of the rev range. Most aftermarket devices and replacement maps only address the fuel ratio as far as I know.
Mike
 

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2022 CRF1100 ATAS ES DCT
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The thing is however, the throttle spacers I put in made a huge difference to my 2021, made holding steady speeds possible but still the engine braking was harsh. There were times when it seemed to be a bit better but next time I would roll off the throttle and it was like I was applying the brake quite hard. I got used to it but it was always there, I just learned, for the most part, how to control it. It seems some have issues and some don't, I have watched youtube and have seen lots of the guys taking the right hand off the throttle and the bike slows smoothly, if I did that on my 2021 I would be jolted forward. With my 2022 it seems to work as it should so looks like I had a really bad one in my 2021 and maybe the 2022 isn't as great as I think it is but rather it is just so much better than my 2021 was.
 

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IF the software has been improved for '22 the question I have is: Will there be a firmware update for the earlier models???

I owned a '13 Triumph Trophy previously, and 1) the throttle by wire was flawless ( just had to mention that ) and 2) there were frequent firmware updates to correct issues big and small. Seems nothing comes out of the Big H except adding Android Auto.

And, I sure would like a DETAILED explanation of exactly what the settings for the suspension in the ES models MEAN.

I have a '21 ATASES MT and I've noticed that the higher the rpm and the steeper the downgrade, sometimes the EB kicks in and out, or that is what it feels like. LOTS of engine braking effect then as bikes slows and rpms drop ( think riding technically a downhill run of twisties ), the EB effect decreases suddenly to 'normal'...

Somewhere else on this forum someone speculated the way Honda controls EB is by modulating throttle opening with injectors off, changing the vacuum the engine is pulling? Not sure anyone knows for sure except The Big G and The Big H and they are not talking.
 

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I don't think Android Auto (and Apple CarPlay) has access to the Honda ECU. That is separate controller firmware. I wouldn't want any GUI application to touch any of the onboard fueling/motion controllers. That would be a bad software design. Getting status information from the underlying controllers (e.g. ECU) is okay, and desirable.
 

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IF the software has been improved for '22 the question I have is: Will there be a firmware update for the earlier models???

I owned a '13 Triumph Trophy previously, and 1) the throttle by wire was flawless ( just had to mention that ) and 2) there were frequent firmware updates to correct issues big and small. Seems nothing comes out of the Big H except adding Android Auto.

And, I sure would like a DETAILED explanation of exactly what the settings for the suspension in the ES models MEAN.

I have a '21 ATASES MT and I've noticed that the higher the rpm and the steeper the downgrade, sometimes the EB kicks in and out, or that is what it feels like. LOTS of engine braking effect then as bikes slows and rpms drop ( think riding technically a downhill run of twisties ), the EB effect decreases suddenly to 'normal'...

Somewhere else on this forum someone speculated the way Honda controls EB is by modulating throttle opening with injectors off, changing the vacuum the engine is pulling? Not sure anyone knows for sure except The Big G and The Big H and they are not talking.
I'd like an explanation of this too, but for a different scenario. I can be in cruise control at 70mph and touch the brake and it can be like hitting a brick wall. Other times it's a nice gentle deceleration. I've ruled out head and tail wind effects by trying it in both directions on windy days and the result is the same unpredictable engine braking.
Mike
 
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