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Discussion starter · #41 ·
If you are able to get this to work and put together a kit I will pay whatever you want for it, plus gratuity!
Stay tuned...

In other news, the rear LEDs are now installed and working. Pictures TK. Will test for the next week but will likely be unable to get the fronts finished and installed until next weekend.
 
Discussion starter · #44 · (Edited)
Guess what? The running lights do not run at 3.5V. Nope.

Oh and also, there are only 2 wires in the front turn signal connectors.

Feels like everything I "knew", was wrong.

But I finally scoped out the front turn signal circuit and found that when the running lights are on, the voltage is 12V modulated at 150 Hz with a duty cycle such that the average voltage is 3.5V (see first photo). This is good as it means I can remove the boost transformer from the circuit, and the running lights should run dimmer without further adjustment.

Still hyper flashing (the second photo shows the rate), though I am working on resistor options. Stay tuned.
 

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Okay, so the good news: the stock relay in the USA bikes will not hyperflash if you connect the OEM euro LED turn signals in place of the incandescents.

Cool!

The bad news: the euro LEDs run at 5-9V, not 12V. If you look really carefully you can see the voltage rating on the blinker lens.

Oh to be sure: they'll light at 12V, and blink at the normal rate.

For about 30 seconds.

Then they'll stop blinking.

For good.

Here's an alternative: light eight $20 bills on fire. The amount of light output will be the same.

Soooo the LED relay and 25W resistors I bought will be returned, and I'll be going in search of a 12V -> 7V constant voltage converter (the remaining working blinkers did not light reliably at 5V on my variable power supply. 7V seemed good).

And Rugged Roads gets more of my money.

Happy to be of service here! :nerd:

First of all, thank you Ablock for this thread, and your sacrifice... I just wish I'd found it sooner before frying my own rear Euro-spec Africa Twin LED turn signals with 12v...

Bummer.

I've read through this thread and your voltage adventure, and for what it's worth (as I think you've ascertained now) the US spec front turn signals are three wire - with a 12v incandescent bulb with two filaments - 5w for the running light, and 21w for the flasher/turn-signal - basically the same bulb as you'd fit in a tail light (5w running/tail light, 21w brake light).

The rear turn signals are two wire, with just a single 21w filament bulb.

If you replace these with the Euro-spec turn signals (LED or otherwise), you'll forfeit the running light circuit, as the Euro fronts are only two-wire - although I imagine the front connector is the three pin version for the loom, but with only two contacts live - I've not actually received my front LED turn signals from the UK yet to confirm - perhaps you can?


Either way, based on what you've found out regarding the trigger voltage for the LED turn signals, it would appear that the reason the OEM [Euro] LED relay is so expensive, is that it is providing a controlled [lower] voltage to all four turn signals, from the original 12v loom feed.

for info. I had already fitted an aftermarket LED flasher relay (that stops the hyper-flashing with the lower load requirements of an LED turn signal), but this was still kicking out 12v, which is presumably what has fried my 5-9v AT turn signals - one flashed for the briefest moment, then it was gone... then other never even lit up that I noticed, but neither seem to work any more that's for sure...

Personally speaking, I think the only really workable solution is to stump up the $$$s for the proper Euro-spec Africa Twin flasher relay*, and hook up the four LED lamps - and forfeit the running lights - but that is ultimately a $700 upgrade, which is hardly worth it I'm sure most of us will agree?

*edit. However, I'm not sure the connector on the US loom will interface with the Euro module - as far as I'm aware its a 4pin on the US bikes (I'm actually fitting these to a CB00X rather than an Africa Twin, but looking at the US parts fiche, the AT seems to have same shape relay as the CB does), but you mention a 13pin connector on the Euro LED relay - are all these pins used? - if so, it would imply the LED relay does work in conjunction with some other circuit on the Euro bikes... ECU or whatever.

I will continue to follow this thread to see if you find an alternative relay (as I've already paid for the four LED flashers). Otherwise, I hope I can return the two unused front ones, and make a paperweight out of the rears.

Thanks again for all your hard work on this!

Jenny x
 
Discussion starter · #47 · (Edited)
First of all, thank you Ablock for this thread, and your sacrifice... I just wish I'd found it sooner before frying my own rear Euro-spec Africa Twin LED turn signals with 12v...

Bummer.
Yep. Sorry. We can start a support group. :crying:
I've read through this thread and your voltage adventure, and for what it's worth (as I think you've ascertained now) the US spec front turn signals are three wire - with an incandescent bulb with two filaments - 5w for the running light, and 21w for the flasher/turn-signal - basically the same bulb as you'd fit in a tail light (5w running/tail light, 21w brake light).
Unless something changed between 2016 and 2017 (I have a 2017), this is not the case. The front incandescents use the same 2-wire HC050 as the rear (this is also true of the Honda LEDs). The running light is effected by the relay modulating the 12V current at 150Hz with a duty cycle that results in an average voltage of 3.5V.

Thinking about it further, since the running lights don't show in the rear, there must be either 1) a separate wire with the modulated voltage, combined with a diode to prevent backfeeding to the rear lights; 2) entirely separate circuits from the relay. The wiring diagram shows the third wire for US bikes, and I think (service manual is at home) shows individual wires for each signal from the relay for non-US. In any case, on US 2017 bikes the wiring is combined somewhere in the loom before the final turn signal connector.

If you replace these with the Euro-spec turn signals (LED or otherwise), you'll forfeit the running light circuit, as the Euro fronts are only two-wire - although I imagine the front connector is the three pin version for the loom, but with only two contacts live - I've not actually received my front LED turn signals from the UK yet to confirm - perhaps you can?
As long as you step down the voltage and limit the current, the existing modulation (as described above) does a fine job of giving a slightly dimmer running light on the front LEDs.
Either way, based on what you've found out regarding the trigger voltage for the LED turn signals, it would appear that the reason the OEM [Euro] LED relay is so expensive, is that it is providing a controlled [lower] voltage to all four turn signals, from the original 12v loom feed.
That does seems to be the case. I don't know if it accounts for the cost. :laugh:
for info. I had already fitted an aftermarket LED flasher relay (that stops the hyper-flashing with the lower load requirements of an LED turn signal), but this was still kicking out 12v, which is presumably what has fried my 5-9v AT turn signals...
...
Personally speaking, I think the only really workable solution is to stump up the $$$s for the proper Euro-spec Africa Twin flasher relay, and hook up the four LED lamps - and forfeit the running lights...
Well, you don't need to forfeit the running lights, but in any case the choice is between:

1. Use stock relay, limit the voltage, add resistors to avoid hyperflash. I have developed a good solution for the voltage. The resistors work fine (once you figure out the correct resistance) but you have to mount them somewhere that can handle the heat. On the plus side, installing them is much easier than tearing off the fuel tank to get to the stock relay.

2. Limit the voltage, use an aftermarket relay for the hyperflash. This should work to get the flashing rate correct, but you will probably lose the running lights and you still have to take off the fuel tank.

3. Buy the OEM Euro relay. Upside: everything should just work. Downside: Very expensive to both purchase and install. However, if my theory above is right that the Euro relay uses separate circuits to each LED, I think this approach is unrealistic as it could require totally rearranging the turn signal wiring starting from the relay deep inside the bike.

My preference at this point is for #1, and that is the approach in the kit I am putting together. Have been talking to some folks about how to distribute these. Any interest posted here is appreciated.

Thanks for posting your experience!
 
Yep. Sorry. We can start a support group. :crying:

Unless something changed between 2016 and 2017 (I have a 2017), this is not the case. The front incandescents use the same 2-wire HC050 as the rear (this is also true of the Honda LEDs). The running light is effected by the relay modulating the 12V current at 150Hz with a duty cycle that results in an average voltage of 3.5V.


As long as you step down the voltage and limit the current, the existing modulation (as described above) does a fine job of giving a slightly dimmer running light on the front LEDs.

That does seems to be the case. I don't know if it accounts for the cost. :laugh:

Well, you don't need to forfeit the running lights, but in any case the choice is between:

1. Use stock relay, limit the voltage, add resistors to avoid hyperflash. I have developed a good solution for the voltage. The resistors work fine (once you figure out the correct resistance) but you have to mount them somewhere that can handle the heat. On the plus side, installing them is much easier than tearing off the fuel tank to get to the stock relay.

2. Limit the voltage, use an aftermarket relay for the hyperflash. This should work to get the flashing rate correct, but you will probably lose the running lights and you still have to take off the fuel tank.

2. Buy the OEM Euro relay. Upside: everything should just work. Downside: Very expensive to both purchase and install.

My preference at this point is for #1, and that is the approach in the kit I am putting together. Have been talking to some folks about how to distribute these. Any interest posted here is appreciated.

Thanks for posting your experience!
And thank you for the quick response - I'm currently in the middle of trying to sort it all out myself...

for info. I'm basing my experience on fitting these LED turn signals to a US model CB500X (they do have slightly different shaped incandescent turn signals - the more traditional Honda shape which do have three wires and dual filament bulbs up front - so it's interesting to hear the US Africa Twin incandescent front turn signals are only two wire - apologies for any confusion there.

again for info. I lifted the tank on the CB, and fitted a direct replacement LED flasher relay, which has 4 pins and works perfectly (with aftermarket LED/12v turn signals) - but as you say, I've come a cropper with the lower voltage requirements for the OEM Honda LED Africa Twin lamps.

I'm not sure how to progress this now - I presume I've fried the rear turn signals by putting 12v through them, and I've yet to receive my front ones, and don't really want to fry another pair!

What do you recommend regarding a [stable] voltage drop from 12v to 7v - and presumably you'd need to fit these to each individual turn signal in series?

Thanks again for your invaluable assistance!

Jenny x
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
I'm not sure how to progress this now - I presume I've fried the rear turn signals by putting 12v through them, and I've yet to receive my front ones, and don't really want to fry another pair!
Yes, you have fried them. You can use them as desk ornaments. I harvested the connectors from mine as the HC050s are annoying to crimp.

What do you recommend regarding a [stable] voltage drop from 12v to 7v - and presumably you'd need to fit these to each individual turn signal in series?
Correct, you need a constant current buck regulator on each signal. There are lots of them available on Amazon or eBay, both with solder pads and screw terminals, based on the LM2596 regulator chip. You need to set the output voltage and then the current limit on each regulator by connecting up a high load (regular 12V bulb works well) and tweaking some pots with a little screwdriver while watching your DMM display. Only take a few minutes once you've done the first ones. I documented the voltage and current limits in a previous post.

Happy to help!
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
I found the solution to the hyper flashing. It wasn't super complicated, but there are some things to know:

1. Resistors are required on all four signals; the signals on each side are not paralleled together, at least not at the final wire pair. I noted that earlier when discussing the mysterious third conductor on the front bulbs. Note that if you only put resistors on the rear bulbs you'll get a fast but not insane flash (about 3Hz). It actually is very noticeable and if it weren't probably a DOT violation I might just leave it that way, and hope no one with epilepsy is driving behind me.

2. Any resistor up to 16Ω will work. Obviously higher is better, but resistances greater than 16Ω will not stop the hyper flash.

3. The resistance value on the front indicators affects the running light brightness. This is a little odd because the resistors are in parallel so the voltage to the LEDs is not changing. It must be the case that the modulation circuitry in the relay is dependent on the load. Low resistance means greater dimming, so to minimize dimming using a 15Ω or 16Ω resistor is optimal.

4. A 15Ω resistor will sink about 12.2W at 14V. Running that wattage through one of the cheap "gold" load resistors available on Amazon/eBay will generate a surface heat increase of at least 240°F/150°C. That's unacceptable. I'm trying some higher quality resistors with better heat dissipation and will report back.
 
Was wondering if anyone knows what the rear brake led voltage drop are? Is the wiring supplying 12v or something else? Cause i was thinking of tapping the brake light line to power some 1ft 12v led strips.
 
Ablock, , , I’m new to this Forum & just read this thread. What’s the Status of your research?? If you haven’t found this out yet, , , the U.S. AT has a different Wire Harness from the Euro AT. The Blinker Relays are different as well and they will NOT interchange, , , the connectors are different. As for the Blinker Assemblies, , the U.S. VFR1200X uses LED Blinkers that appear to be identical to the Euro AT!! I kinda went through the same headaches as you about a year (+) ago. I also ruined two of my Four blinkers. At that point I decided to just go with the incandescent blinkers. I may or may not revisit this Mod later, , , I’m convinced it can be done and without Big electrical changes.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
I've been using the OEM Euro blinkers with my custom circuit boards more than six months now with no issues. However, I never did add resistors to the circuit to slow down the fast blinking. There were three problems with using resistors:

1. They dim the DRLs
2. They get hot
3. There is no place to mount them

In the end I decided that the fast blinking actually made the turn signals more noticeable to cagers, so choosing not to deal with the resistor hassles listed above had some additional upside.
 
For anyone wanting the Euro LED turn signals, you can get aftermarket turn signals that are identical to the OEM Euro turn signals, but they run on 12V, just like the North American version. They're available on Amazon.

Canadian Amazon Link

US Amazon Link

I have installed these for both front and rear. They fit perfectly. I'm not using any resistors, nor did I change out the flasher relay. The turn signals flash a little faster than stock, but not by much. The flash rate increase is definitely not as much as any of the other LED turn signals I've installed on previous bikes. It's slow enough where I don't feel the need to install resistors.
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
For anyone wanting the Euro LED turn signals, you can get aftermarket turn signals that are identical to the OEM Euro turn signals, but they run on 12V, just like the North American version. They're available on Amazon.
Looks like a good option. The housing shape is definitely close to the OEM Euro ones.

To connect without splicing you'll want the proper connectors (HC 050) from Eastern Beaver or Cycleterminal.

How bright are the running lights with these installed?
 
For anyone wanting the Euro LED turn signals, you can get aftermarket turn signals that are identical to the OEM Euro turn signals, but they run on 12V, just like the North American version. They're available on Amazon.

Canadian Amazon Link

US Amazon Link

I have installed these for both front and rear. They fit perfectly. I'm not using any resistors, nor did I change out the flasher relay. The turn signals flash a little faster than stock, but not by much. The flash rate increase is definitely not as much as any of the other LED turn signals I've installed on previous bikes. It's slow enough where I don't feel the need to install resistors.

Thank you so much!!!!

Order placed!!!
 
Looks like a good option. The housing shape is definitely close to the OEM Euro ones.

To connect without splicing you'll want the proper connectors (HC 050) from Eastern Beaver or Cycleterminal.

How bright are the running lights with these installed?
Yes, they don't come with the connectors. I just cut the connectors off my stock turn signals and used butt splices to attach them to the new ones. Never going back to those ugly OEM ones, lol.

Running lights are bright. I would say slightly brighter than the stock ones, but I think that's mostly the difference between Incandescent and LED bulbs. Even so, there is a clear difference in light intensity when they are flashing. I'm certainly impressed by them.
 
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