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Discussion Starter #1
Honda has posted information and prices for it's 2016 Pioneer 1000 line here: http://powersports.honda.com/2016/pioneer-1000-5.aspx


Honda Pro Kevin posted a lot more details and insider information on the 2016 Honda Pioneer 1000 Side by Side here:
http://www.hondaprokevin.com/2016-honda-pioneer-1000-1000-5-review-specs-video-sxs-utv-side-by-side-atv-sxs1000/ )


Most notable to me, are the prices for Pioneer 1000 models:
2016 Pioneer 1000 Price / MSRP: $13,999 (base model), (Prices for other models with more seating and electric power steering, range up to $18,000.)


So why is this notable? Pioneer and CRF-AT share the same basic engine, and all Pioneer 1000's come with DCT (six speed with reverse). Of course, a side by side UTV is substantially larger, heavier, with more parts and is more complex than a dual sport motorcycle. And naturally, costs more to build. However, the Pioneer is being "made" in the USA with foreign and domestically sourced parts and that might lower costs a little.


So the big question is, will Honda price the CRF-AT commensurate with its cost of production compared to the Pioneer 1000 UTV, or just arbitrarily price it to compete with other ADV models such as Suzuki's VStrom 1000? The VStrom is about $13000 and IMO it would take some serious chutzpah for Honda to set the CRF-AT base model anywhere near that price when, for another thousand dollars, you could get a Pioneer 1000 with DCT and a whole lot more.

Using Polaris as an example of a company making UTV's and motorcycles, and the RZR 1000 EPS (MSRP $20,300) and Indian Scout 1000 (Indian is owned by Polaris) base MSRP is $11,300, we can say that Polaris is demonstrably able to make and sell a 1000cc motorcycle for 56% of the price of a 1000 cc UTV. I'm pretty sure we wont be seeing any CRF-AT's priced at $8000 (56% of $14K) but if Honda can't bring the base CRF-AT to market well under $10000, I will be very disappointed.


 

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I don't know if you're getting the base AT at sub $10K. In fact I don't think there's a brand new 1000cc bike ont he market that can be had for under $10K...

but I'd happily be wrong...
 

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I don't think that the ATV using the same engine will really have an influence on the Africa Twin. It's not like people will be cross shopping ATVs and the CRF-AT. They are going to price with consideration to the bikes that it will be competing against.
 

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I don't know if you're getting the base AT at sub $10K. In fact I don't think there's a brand new 1000cc bike ont he market that can be had for under $10K...

but I'd happily be wrong...
I don't think that the ATV using the same engine will really have an influence on the Africa Twin. It's not like people will be cross shopping ATVs and the CRF-AT. They are going to price with consideration to the bikes that it will be competing against.

You both might be right, but if the never ending complaints from political pressure groups in the US has taught me one thing, it's that you don't get if you don't ask. So in my opinion, a good reason for posting on the Africa Twin forum is that Honda marketing guys might actually read our posts, and consider our concerns in taking decisions about things like pricing.


If the consensus here is that paying the same price for the CRF-AT as for a Pioneer 1000 or VStrom 1000 or a R1200GS is the right thing, Honda will have no excuse for making less profit by offering a lower price and might even raise the price to make more profit. If the inmates here push back against paying that kind of money for a CRF-AT for whatever reason (and I have several), Honda might have second thoughts about it. If Honda isn't listening, our buying decisions will speak for themselves.
 

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You both might be right, but if the never ending complaints from political pressure groups in the US has taught me one thing, it's that you don't get if you don't ask. So in my opinion, a good reason for posting on the Africa Twin forum is that Honda marketing guys might actually read our posts, and consider our concerns in taking decisions about things like pricing.


If the consensus here is that paying the same price for the CRF-AT as for a Pioneer 1000 or VStrom 1000 or a R1200GS is the right thing, Honda will have no excuse for making less profit by offering a lower price and might even raise the price to make more profit. If the inmates here push back against paying that kind of money for a CRF-AT for whatever reason (and I have several), Honda might have second thoughts about it. If Honda isn't listening, our buying decisions will speak for themselves.
hmmm...

thinking about it over night...

ABS and DCT equipped bikes will be Hondas margin leaders surely. Honda already knows DCT has a better take rate then MT's when they offer them.

Could they go a little lower on base MSRP knowing full well they make up the difference and then some on the ABS and DCT models???
 

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hmmm...

thinking about it over night...

ABS and DCT equipped bikes will be Hondas margin leaders surely. Honda already knows DCT has a better take rate then MT's when they offer them.

Could they go a little lower on base MSRP knowing full well they make up the difference and then some on the ABS and DCT models???
That might have been the plan originally, but now that ABS and TC will be standard on all US AT's, it will all come down to MSRP for the base model.

As for the cost of DCT, it adds $1500 US to the VFR1200 price, and for the NC700, DCT is just $500 more and that includes ABS. Since the CRF-AT will already have ABS, it will be hard to justify charging more than -- shall we say $500 to $750 for DCT? I'm inclined to think that $500 is the more likely amount, if only because Honda seems to really believe in DCT for bikes and could use low cost/high value to increase acceptance by American riders. (Dirt bike riders with Rekluse auto-clutches wont give them up and sport bike guys are loving quick shift systems that blip the engine and permit clutch free shifting once underway, so the tide may be changing in Honda's favor.)
 

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Well I am a Honda Pioneer guy and I was resheaching this new engine and DCT that they where takeing for the New AT bike and Sticking it in the Pioneer 1000. I have also been planing on buying a duel- sport for some time now and that is what lead my here. Now i think i am sold on the AT!
 

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Well I am a Honda Pioneer guy and I was resheaching this new engine and DCT that they where takeing for the New AT bike and Sticking it in the Pioneer 1000. I have also been planing on buying a duel- sport for some time now and that is what lead my here. Now i think i am sold on the AT!
Are you looking at the DCT as well?

Bill's been telling us about a potential foot shift accessory from Honda, allows you to shift the bike with your foot instead of a thumb flipper... Which if they make available to us I will be taking DCT no issues :D;)
 

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Yes I plan to have the DCT in my AT1000 and my P1000m5. This way I can onestop shop for supplies and learn (repairs) one engine and Trans for both rides.

I hope the Foot shifter pans out for us. I think that will be the gravy onthe brisket!
 

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Yes I plan to have the DCT in my AT1000 and my P1000m5. This way I can onestop shop for supplies and learn (repairs) one engine and Trans for both rides.

I hope the Foot shifter pans out for us. I think that will be the gravy onthe brisket!
Do we know they'll be sharing a gearbox?
 

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Do we know they'll be sharing a gearbox?
@Paige I don't know anything for certain but I will stick my neck out and say no because of Difference in weight of the two. the pioneer 1000m5 will be 1709lbs (for deluxe) curb weight it will require different gearing to allow for more torque to move it. top speed will be lower because of it in the pioneer reportedly will be 77mph! faster then I need to go for sure but nice to have. I will pose your question on the other forum I am on (hondasxs one). and see if I can't get you a for sure answer.
 
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