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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gents,
Well, I've owned (well, almost owning) the '18 AT/AS DCT now for 2 weeks and a day. As I've stated in numerous posts, I'm loving this bike more and more by the minute. I've fallen over on it, ONE TIME and it was because of a very, stupid move on my part, lesson learned. With the exception of just a couple of minor issues, I'm totally happy with it. Now, one of the issues, if one want's to call it an issue, is the side stand.

There's been some talk about the side stand of the Twin. In that, IT'S WEAK, and, under certain circumstances, it can actually SNAP/break due to its not-so-bold design. The answer to this, for many of you that had concerns, is to push the order button on your little PC/Tablet/Phone to order this:

Camel Toe Side Stand - Africa Twin

The pivot point/fastening system, is also not the best, in my opinion. If the video goes through, you'll see what is in my opinion, considerably more looseness than there should be. So, with all that being said, what might be the consensus about this item. How many of you have changed your factory stand to maybe the one I linked or, to something else? Do you feel more confident in the bikes ability to stand up. I, quite often, use the get on the horse method for getting on my Twin. That is, I climb on the left side foot peg, then swing my leg over and mount the bike. I'm 6' 2.5" tall and at present, hover around 244 lbs. So, add that to the stress that stand is already supporting with the Twin, and, you (or I) could end up in a major catastrophe if that stand should SNAP at that particular time.
Scott

P.S. Well, as usual, even a 10 second video won't go through. But, just in case you want to see the looseness for yourself, just have someone hold the Twin straight up and down then, move your side stand to the down position and, then nudge it side to side. If yours is like mine, you'll see what in my opinion, is too much play in that mounting system, for a side stand.
 

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Well Scott, I like to step up on the left peg with my left foot and then swing my right leg over the back of the seat (yeah, I'm short.) I did not feel really comfortable with this on the stock side stand. It felt kind of flexy, to me.

Since I also wanted a larger foot print on the sidestand pad, I looked at the plethora of adapter feet, and found Cory's Camel Pro sidestand that you reference. It solved both issues. I put it on about a month or so ago, and have been pretty happy with both the foot print and the additional rigidity. It will stand the bike up in deep sand, at least for as long as I've tried it.

I did not weigh it for comparison to the cast aluminum stock piece, but it feels heavier. It is tubular steel, and a relatively thick gauge.

One unexpected bonus is that the Camel Pro is easier for me to hit the "toe" with the toe of my boot to deploy and retract.

I would do it again, if that means anything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hey B,
I most certainly appreciate your contribution here. I think it might have been you that I learned about this replacement stand from. While I can simply order this replacement stand up and have it here in a few days, me being me, a fabricator at heart, I just might try and build one that's well, I don't like to say it but, a copy of that Camel Toe one. If I can't well, no harm in trying. I also might try and fabricate one of those Eastbound Motowinches too. But, that's another story. Thanks for helping here. By the way, may I ask, how well does the actual pivot/attachment part mate up, any play or movement in that system like the factory one?
Scott
 
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Hey B,
I most certainly appreciate your contribution here. I think it might have been you that I learned about this replacement stand from. While I can simply order this replacement stand up and have it here in a few days, me being me, a fabricator at heart, I just might try and build one that's well, I don't like to say it but, a copy of that Camel Toe one. If I can't well, no harm in trying. I also might try and fabricate one of those Eastbound Motowinches too. But, that's another story. Thanks for helping here. By the way, may I ask, how well does the actual pivot/attachment part mate up, any play or movement in that system like the factory one?
Scott
It mates up better; less slop. It could probably be a little tighter, if you were custom making it, but a definite improvement over the stock one.
 

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Gents,
Well, I've owned (well, almost owning) the '18 AT/AS DCT now for 2 weeks and a day. As I've stated in numerous posts, I'm loving this bike more and more by the minute. I've fallen over on it, ONE TIME and it was because of a very, stupid move on my part, lesson learned. With the exception of just a couple of minor issues, I'm totally happy with it. Now, one of the issues, if one want's to call it an issue, is the side stand.

There's been some talk about the side stand of the Twin. In that, IT'S WEAK, and, under certain circumstances, it can actually SNAP/break due to its not-so-bold design. The answer to this, for many of you that had concerns, is to push the order button on your little PC/Tablet/Phone to order this:

Camel Toe Side Stand - Africa Twin

The pivot point/fastening system, is also not the best, in my opinion. If the video goes through, you'll see what is in my opinion, considerably more looseness than there should be. So, with all that being said, what might be the consensus about this item. How many of you have changed your factory stand to maybe the one I linked or, to something else? Do you feel more confident in the bikes ability to stand up. I, quite often, use the get on the horse method for getting on my Twin. That is, I climb on the left side foot peg, then swing my leg over and mount the bike. I'm 6' 2.5" tall and at present, hover around 244 lbs. So, add that to the stress that stand is already supporting with the Twin, and, you (or I) could end up in a major catastrophe if that stand should SNAP at that particular time.
Scott

P.S. Well, as usual, even a 10 second video won't go through. But, just in case you want to see the looseness for yourself, just have someone hold the Twin straight up and down then, move your side stand to the down position and, then nudge it side to side. If yours is like mine, you'll see what in my opinion, is too much play in that mounting system, for a side stand.
Hey Scott: If possible, please post a video demonstrating the side stand play. For some reason, my OEM implementation doesn't behave unexpectedly. Granted, same build material, but it feels firm. Maybe I am missing something.
 

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I have not had any issue with the OEM stand either. Granted, I don't use the pegs to mount up. I flat-footed swing my leg over the saddle even with the rear box and water-tight bags on the pillion.I have never noted any kind if structural flexing in the stand either. The previous owner put an extension pad on so I am good to go.

The OEM stand looks like cast aluminum. Probably manufactured using an investment casting process like lost foam. Given the structural cross-section of the stand at its thinnest point some flexing might be expected under significant load. Also, at the attach point to the frame, a designer would not want tight tolerances due to the location. That area is exposed to a lot of dirt and grime which would cause binding and damage in a tight tolerance situation. It's probably AOK to have a little bit of slop in any direction except lateral (side-to-side). Check for this by putting the bike on its center-stand and put the kickstand up. You should not be able to move it side-to-side (left to right).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
'Mornin' Gang,
I thank you all for expressing your thoughts and experience's here with this subject. DT, I tried to post a video. I've been around computers for eons and can navigate fairly well. But, when it comes to posting videos, I'm up against a wall. I think if I had a youtube account, that might be the ticket and, it's possible I already have one. I'll look into that. As for the actual play in the fastening system, yep, it's there and, contributes to a portion of the total movement of that stand and related components during bike support.

Now, is it possible for some to have less play than others, in one answer, I'd say no, not possible simply because, these are not hand made by one or many different techs. These are machine made and the tolerances are the same when machines are involved. In another answer, can MACHINES create different tolerances in machining thousands and thousands of parts, why not? Things can wear, lathe bits, cutters and all that. So, again, is it possible for some of these side stand pivot points to be tighter, I don't see why not.

Mine is Waaaaaay more loose than I would think it should be. And because of that play, in conjunction with the flexing of the shaft itself, when I put that stand down, and let it take the weight of the bike, that bike leans quite a bit AFTER the stand has touched the floor/ground. Now, "leans quite a bit" is, like many things related to human intervention, is subjective. Some might see that leaning and say: "What's wrong with that, it's normal".

Now, as to that pivot point sort of needing clearance due to it's proximity of the earth. Well, my thoughts are just the exact opposite. The tighter a pivoting joint is, WITHOUT BINDING, the better chances it has to ward off intrusion of debris, sand, mud, and more.

In my earlier life as a fireman, I had an overtime assignment that lasted 24 years of my 30 year career. And that assignment was to outfit brand new fire trucks and prepare them for service. We created all sorts of systems for those trucks, sliding trays, pivoting assemblies for deployment of tools, pivoting chairs, undercarriage rolling trays for heavy equipment and a lot more. One of the things I learned early on in that assignment was, if you're gonna design and make or fabricate a mechanism, consider just how much use, and ABUSE the item or component would take throughout the service life of it.

Ok, enough blabbing. As stated, if, IF I decide to actually make a replacement stand, it will be like the Camel Toe version which, would be considerably stouter in design and, the pivot attachment would be not only tighter but, I might encorperate one of my old and well tested designs which employs either nylon or UHMW washers that are used for tensioning or, pre-loading a pivot joint. We'll see. Thanks again to all for your thoughts.
Scott
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Looks like this is not an issue with the 2020 models. The 2020 models are using a steel stand.
Well,
That suggests to me that, Honda might have thought the previous stands could represent some form of issue, although sporadic so, it changed the stand. Hmmmmm. Just an assumption.
Scott
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yeah DT,
Being especially new to the AT world, I by far, am really not experienced enough to judge one way or the other, whether or not the cast aluminum stand was an ACTUAL problem or not. The AT is a great bike, no doubt about it. But, like many motorcycles of all makes/models/sizes/types, there's always SOMETHING that, some of us consumers might, I say MIGHT find that can be improved/changed/altered, while others might find there's nothing wrong with the bike at all. I most likely could live with that factory stand for eons of time.

Ever park a HARLEY? For years owners of Harleys would park them, put out the kick stand and, once that stand touched the ground, their bikes would lean an additional 12"-18". I thought several times, "Man, that thing's going over". But, none of them ever did. So, we'll see.
Scott
 

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Mount and dismount using the right side footpeg. If the stand breaks, you'll fall onto the bike, not under it.

BTW: if loose things peeve you, get a center stand. Every big bump and landing, that thing bounces down, hits the ground an bounces back up against the jounce pads. Annoying as all get out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well,
For those that CARE and or are interested.....here's what I found. The side stand mounting system is designed and assembled with apparently quite a bit of sloppiness. Not exactly sure WHY it's done that way but, it just is. Just for grins, I disassembled it to really see what's what. It's not a complicated system, duh!!! But, it's also designed so there's no way of tightening it all up, unless one feels like doing some machining. In the pics, you see the assembly, disassembled.

For those have not messed with it but, are curious on how it comes apart, it's actually really simple. The first thing you need to do is, if you don't have a center stand, you need to prop the bike up straight up and down, AND STABLE! Once that's done, then, a pair of well working vise grips are needed to remove the spring. Some of you high-tech boys might have a spring remover but, vice grips will do the trick.

I put my foot up against the foot peg, to stabilize the bike while I pulled backwards on that spring tip. It came off without all that much pull. Then, the little inside spring comes right off. Now the stand will flop up and down easy. On the back side of the pivot joint, is an 8mm headed screw. That retains the sensor. Remove that screw (or tiny bolt if that's what you want to call it) and, the sensor pulls straight out. You'll see small tab that rotates so send the signal to the ECM that states whether the stand is up or down. Just be careful that there's no harm that comes to that little tab. If you disassemble this stand in the down position which, would be normal, just remember the position of that little tab and install it as it came off.

The small screw that you removed to remove the sensor, screws into a 12MM bolt head. On the outside, you see a 14mm nut, that's used to secure the main pivot bolt. Remove that 14mm nut. Now, remove the 12mm bolt from the back side. You'd think the stand would just drop out but, for the most part, it won't. The reason is, the 12mm bolt secures a bushing to ONE EAR only of that stand. And, when you remove the bolt, the bushing typically stays in the pivot. You can use a small flat tipped screw driver to push that bushing out the back side. Once that happens, the stand falls away.

That's it, you've completely disassembled it. What's easily determined is, the bushing-to-bore (the part that remains on the bike) clearance is where ALL the slop is. All the main bolt does is, secure the bushing to one side of the two ears of the stand. Due to the design, there's no way to tighten things up, period. It's the loose fit of the bushing in the bore that is all the slop.

So, with all that being said and done, I re-assembled the whole thing. Took about 3-4 minutes. Now, my bike is on a Condor Wheel Chock. If you've not heard of those, look them up. In short, they hold a bike straight up and down, with no other support. Even though it was on the chock, I still had the wife do a little secondary securing while I pulled on the spring tip to engage it on the stand. It didn't/doesn't take much pull to pull it far enough to engage the hook on the stand. DONE.

For now, I'll probably walk away from this project. The flex in the actual stand is another matter. It is a cast aluminum stand and, has been documented that it can break, with variable circumstances. Just how often that might happen, who on the planet knows? Out of say, 1,000 A/T's sold, all years from '16 to '19, maybe 1, 5, 20 have experienced a broken stand, who knows?
Scott
 

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I thought I would never get so quirmish about a side stand, and I have had some sorry-lookin' specimens in the distant past.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hey DoubleThumper,
You asked for me to link a video of the looseness I experienced and/or see. Well, I think I actually created a youtube version of it. If it works, you'll see what this discussion's been all about. If it works, you'll see the stand, with the securing 14mm nut off the main bolt. But, that nut has nothing to do with anything other than, securing the main bolt so it doesn't back out. Hope it works.
Scott

P.S. Now, while the sloppiness or, looseness is somewhat small in terms of the actual stand moving. But, amplify it many times, in terms of the stand being stationary and, the BIKE moving and you can understand what I'm thinking here.

 

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So far I haven't had an issue with the OEM side stand while mounting and unmounting from the left and swinging my leg over. It held up on my '16 and so far on my '19 ATAS.

But that said, my wife won one of the Camel sides stands last year at a local rally and there is no doubt that it is a much sturdier and solidly built side-stand than the OEM. Absolutely a worthwhile upgrade if the OEM is failing you are making you squeamish :)

I did add the Outback Motortech Center Stand to my '19, whereas I had the OEM center stand on my '16. It likewise seems to be a much more solid build with a heavier spring than the OEM and seems to remain in place better than my OEM one did.
 

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Hey DoubleThumper,
You asked for me to link a video of the looseness I experienced and/or see. Well, I think I actually created a youtube version of it. If it works, you'll see what this discussion's been all about. If it works, you'll see the stand, with the securing 14mm nut off the main bolt. But, that nut has nothing to do with anything other than, securing the main bolt so it doesn't back out. Hope it works.
Scott

P.S. Now, while the sloppiness or, looseness is somewhat small in terms of the actual stand moving. But, amplify it many times, in terms of the stand being stationary and, the BIKE moving and you can understand what I'm thinking here.

Nicely posted Scott. (y)

I clearly see what you are referring to now. I don't think mine has that play yet, but I expect it will because all my bikes have had to some extent. Being aluminum, maybe it is a concern since this is my first aluminum side stand and confidence is weird.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Hey DT,
I thank you for the nice comment. A couple things here. One, if you re-look at the center photo above, you'll see the bushing 1/2 way inserted into the stand pivot. If you look close enough, you'll see that bushing is TILTED. What that means is, the machining for that bushing, in the stand, is not nearly as precise as it could have been. But, even though the relationship of the bushing to the stand is not great, that's not the problem you see in the video.

The problem is, the relationship of the bushing to the parent component, that's still attached to the bike. By design, the bushing is LOCKED to the stand, via the 12mm bolt. So, there's zero movement between the stand and the bushing. But, the bore in the parent component, is oversized to the bushing. For what reason, I don't have a clue. Are they all like that, again, not a clue. The Kid with a new toy psychology was in effect while we were at the dealership so, while the extra lean in parking the Twin was noticed, it did not play any part of further investigation at that time.

AT this point in time, as stated, I'll more than likely either just live with it OR, I might spring for the Camel Toe version of the AT stand. But, installing the Camel Toe stand will only take care of the flex, not the poor bushing clearances. If I wanted to just play with it, a very simple but, a tad technical solution would be to, simply machine another bushing that would fit the parent bore more precisely. That alone with stop about 85-90% of the tipping of the AT after the stand touches the ground and, the weight is placed on it. The actual flex is not all that much, but it's there. The Camel Toe stand takes care of that flex and that's what most are seeing and feeling when they retrofit that unit to the bike. If their happy with the results, GREAT.

Contrary to some thinking I'm over thinking this, I'm really not. The AT is a top heavy bike. It LEANS a lot when the weight's put on the stand. My 900 lb. GL 1800 Goldwing didn't have that much lean when on the side stand. But, to the Wings defense, it's center of gravity is much lower than the Twin.

If, by goofing around with this situation, maybe I can prevent a future catastrophe, at least for myself. We'll see. I'm retired, and having fun with this stuff. I just finished fabrication of a front and rear rack for my '07 Yamaha TW 200. Then, I tried my hand at Powder Coating coating them. Turned out pretty good for non pro job.
Scott
 

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