Traction Control Setting

4164 Views 14 Replies 5 Participants Last post by rjanssen42, 3 mo ago

Moto Vita

Discussion Starter · 6 mo ago (Edited)

I have a new 1100 and I'm ready to start taking it off the road a bit.
If I leave the Traction and wheelie controls set at 1 all the time are they unobtrusive enough to not interfere with an occasional short loose climb. I'm picturing riding down a dirt or gravel road and wanting to climb a ditchbank to get to another road, if I plan to do more low traction riding than that I would turn off the traction control but since it reverts to setting 1 when I restart the bike I'd rather not worry about it for normal, casual, riding.
I'd like to learn this the easy way, on the computer, rather than on the side of a loose hill. I'm an experienced rider with good throttle control.

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Autonomity

· #2 · 6 mo ago

Both wheelie and traction control will interfere, however you can get pretty far with TC and W on 1. That said tires and surface will obviously play a big role, I've ridden offroad in the mud with TC on 3 and it's fine until it's not. When it's no longer fine you will see RPM drop to 1000 and the bike will do nothing, or worse, get stuck inevitably.

The bigger problem is ABS coming back on, especially when descending or in less than ideal conditions. Keep in mind that everything resets to ON after restarting. You can use the killswitch instead of ignition for shorter breaks, sadly tipover sensor requires a full restart of the bike.

Moto Vita

Discussion Starter · #3 · 6 mo ago

Autonomity said:
Both wheelie and traction control will interfere, however you can get pretty far with TC and W on 1. That said tires and surface will obviously play a big role, I've ridden offroad in the mud with TC on 3 and it's fine until it's not. When it's no longer fine you will see RPM drop to 1000 and the bike will do nothing, or worse, get stuck inevitably.

The bigger problem is ABS coming back on, especially when descending or in less than ideal conditions. Keep in mind that everything resets to ON after restarting. You can use the killswitch instead of ignition for shorter breaks, sadly tipover sensor requires a full restart of the bike.

Thanks,
So is traction control an all or nothing thing, or does it come on gradually like slipping a clutch?

WeeWilly

· #4 · 6 mo ago

I don't own one of the newer all-singing, all-dancing AT models (I have a 2016 Manual), but when I go off tarmac, I kill TC and ABS completely (when I remember...) so I own the bike and whatever may happen next. Sometimes it's not pretty though. Just ask @pdwolfe about the Georgia ride last year. That was one for the books!

Reactions: 1

Autonomity

· #5 · 6 mo ago

Moto Vita said:
Thanks,
So is traction control an all or nothing thing, or does it come on gradually like slipping a clutch?

The settings are gradual, the intervention is not; you'll have to understand a few basic concepts about the inner workings.

Both wheelie and traction control are based on wheelspeed, the setting traction control is on will determine a factor of how often the rear wheel is allowed to rotate for each rotation of the front wheel. Wheelie control works the other way around and will allow the front wheel to be moving slower than the tear wheel, while also using some measurements from the IMU. In some cases for me this has lead to the TC light flickering and cutting power, with TC off and wheelie control on the lowest setting.

So the lower the TC setting, the more wheelspin the rear is allowed compared to the front. Once you reach the ratio it will intervene by cutting spark to the engine, you can test this by doing a burn-out/drifts. As the engine is cutting spark the loss of throttle will feel rather weird, you can crack the throttle all the way open and the bike won't go above 1000RPM while cutting out aggressively (almost like a revlimiter, but reverse).

The settings are gradual of course, the intervention is not, it will simply cut ignition/spark. On setting 7 (highest) the speed difference the bike allows between front and rear wheel is essentially 0. On setting 1 the wheel can spin a significant amount before kicking in.

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Reactions: 1

Moto Vita

Discussion Starter · #6 · 6 mo ago

Autonomity said:
The settings are gradual, the intervention is not; you'll have to understand a few basic concepts about the inner workings.

Both wheelie and traction control are based on wheelspeed, the setting traction control is on will determine a factor of how often the rear wheel is allowed to rotate for each rotation of the front wheel. Wheelie control works the other way around and will allow the front wheel to be moving slower than the tear wheel, while also using some measurements from the IMU. In some cases for me this has lead to the TC light flickering and cutting power, with TC off and wheelie control on the lowest setting.

So the lower the TC setting, the more wheelspin the rear is allowed compared to the front. Once you reach the ratio it will intervene by cutting spark to the engine, you can test this by doing a burn-out/drifts. As the engine is cutting spark the loss of throttle will feel rather weird, you can crack the throttle all the way open and the bike won't go above 1000RPM while cutting out aggressively (almost like a revlimiter, but reverse).

The settings are gradual of course, the intervention is not, it will simply cut ignition/spark. On setting 7 (highest) the speed difference the bike allows between front and rear wheel is essentially 0. On setting 1 the wheel can spin a significant amount before kicking in.

Thanks again.
It's disappointing that Honda didn't use a more sophisticated system than just cutting the ignition. I had hoped for actual traction control, as in maintaining traction, rather than just cutting off power.
I guess it makes sense to always turn off TC and WC at the same time, I hadn't thought of it. It's a shame that both features can't be turned off without them resetting each the ignition switch is cycled.

Reactions: 1

Autonomity

· #7 · 6 mo ago

Moto Vita said:
Thanks again.
It's disappointing that Honda didn't use a more sophisticated system than just cutting the ignition. I had hoped for actual traction control, as in maintaining traction, rather than just cutting off power.
I guess it makes sense to always turn off TC and WC at the same time, I hadn't thought of it. It's a shame that both features can't be turned off without them resetting each the ignition switch is cycled.

This is how everyone does it, it's a more sophisticated system than one would first assume. This is also why we have a 270° crank, why Yamaha made the "crossplane" i4 and why Triumph made their T-plane triple. It's a technology based on lots of ongoing research throughout motorcycle racing.

The whole idea of this different firing order and why single cylinder bikes are so common in off-road applications is because they have more grip.
The mechanic for this is that the tire gets to relax for longer between each power-pulse of the engine. This recovery time allowing the tire to grip is why engineers have gone through various hoops. By cutting the ignition (spark) the exact same thing happens, the tire is allowed to recompose itself and find grip. The problem starts occurring when there's no grip, or significant proportional overrotation is required to move forwards; the feedback loop breaks and will just result in power being continuously cut.

It's actually pretty **** genius.

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Bicycle part Bicycle tire

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Moto Vita

Discussion Starter · #8 · 6 mo ago

Autonomity said:
This is how everyone does it, it's a more sophisticated system than one would first assume. This is also why we have a 270° crank, why Yamaha made the "crossplane" i4 and why Triumph made their T-plane triple. It's a technology based on lots of ongoing research throughout motorcycle racing.

The whole idea of this different firing order and why single cylinder bikes are so common in off-road applications is because they have more grip.
The mechanic for this is that the tire gets to relax for longer between each power-pulse of the engine. This recovery time allowing the tire to grip is why engineers have gone through various hoops. By cutting the ignition (spark) the exact same thing happens, the tire is allowed to recompose itself and find grip. The problem starts occurring when there's no grip, or significant proportional overrotation is required to move forwards; the feedback loop breaks and will just result in power being continuously cut.

It's actually pretty **** genius.
View attachment 77381

I think I misunderstood your post that said the intervention is not gradual. If the system only cuts the ignition long enough for the tire to regain grip that is what I was originally envisioning, and I would think that in some circumstances the system could activate without the rider noticing. Do I have it right?

Autonomity

· #9 · 6 mo ago

Moto Vita said:
I think I misunderstood your post that said the intervention is not gradual. If the system only cuts the ignition long enough for the tire to regain grip that is what I was originally envisioning, and I would think that in some circumstances the system could activate without the rider noticing. Do I have it right?

Correct, assuming normal circumstances. On the road as example you will rarely ever notice it. But like I said, if there is "no grip" the system will end up in a feedback loop cutting throttle to find grip it can't find. The higher the setting, the earlier it will start interrupting.

Reactions: 1

Moto Vita

Discussion Starter · #10 · 6 mo ago

Autonomity said:
Correct, assuming normal circumstances. On the road as example you will rarely ever notice it. But like I said, if there is "no grip" the system will end up in a feedback loop cutting throttle to find grip it can't find. The higher the setting, the earlier it will start interrupting.

OK, thanks. I think I did feel the TCS once when cornering on a paved road. At the time I interpreted it as a slip of the rear tire but oddly there was no noticeable lateral movement of the wheel, now I know what to look for.

Autonomity

· #11 · 6 mo ago

Moto Vita said:
OK, thanks. I think I did feel the TCS once when cornering on a paved road. At the time I interpreted it as a slip of the rear tire but oddly there was no noticeable lateral movement of the wheel, now I know what to look for.

That's exactly what it feels like, but without the RPM spike. Normally when traction breaks the engine RPM and speed of the rear wheel go up. When TC kicks in your engine RPM does not go up as the bike is cutting the spark, which in terms of response will feel like your rear tire is spinning freely (like a burn-out).

Usually this intervention is in the hundredths of milliseconds as it only cuts spark (and the fuel injectors) for one or two ignition cycles, the engine is likely doing 2000RPM or more.
On the road this usually just leads to the higher settings of TC feeling like the bike is gutted. Try doing a traffic light sprint with TC on 7 and then on 3, you'll feel that the bike lags/becomes rather sluggish in comparison. This is because secretly it is skipping ignition cycles and thus putting down less power.

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Brrace

· #12 · 3 mo ago

Can you help me? What is the best offroad setup? To use on trails, sand, with maximum power, that the accelerator responds faster, that you push to pass obstacles? I use only for offroad, see here 👉 africa_twin_brrace

Autonomity

· #13 · 3 mo ago

Brrace said:
Can you help me? What is the best offroad setup? To use on trails, sand, with maximum power, that the accelerator responds faster, that you push to pass obstacles? I use only for offroad, see here 👉 africa_twin_brrace

I like TC off, WC off, Throttle 4 (least aggressive) and EB 3 (minimum), ABS offroad + rear off.

Throttle goes on least because its much more manageable, throttle 3 is acceptable, anything more aggressive just sucks. Even in throttle 4 you can easily wheelie/loft the front. Especially in mud I prefer more control, throttle setting doesn't affect power available, only how its put out.

Reactions: 3

Brrace

· #14 · 3 mo ago

Autonomity said:
I like TC off, WC off, Throttle 4 (least aggressive) and EB 3 (minimum), ABS offroad + rear off.

Throttle goes on least because its much more manageable, throttle 3 is acceptable, anything more aggressive just sucks. Even in throttle 4 you can easily wheelie/loft the front. Especially in mud I prefer more control, throttle setting doesn't affect power available, only how its put out.

Thank you, I will test

Where do I post my experiences Africa Twin BR Race (@africa_twin_brrace) • Instagram photos and videos

rjanssen42

· #15 · 3 mo ago

In order to completely turn off torque control and wheelie control, you need to toggle down to the number one setting and then hold the toggle steady for a few more seconds and then it should switch to zero, I've had issues with my bike wanting to hold me back going uphill while spinning the back tire and it was frustrating, then someone on here informed me that I needed to zero out both the torque control and wheelie control

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