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Forced to sell because Honda made a bike that Honda can't fix

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Discussion starter · #41 ·
Cuchulainn said:
I get that you can only go by what they tell you. But surely you can't be the first to have seal go. You would think that there would be a major stink about it by now if nobody had the tools? Could they mean that the tool is not currently available so if they didn't already have one in their possession they can't get one now?
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There was talk about getting the tool by October...

Others have definitely had the issue...one dealer readily admitted they had turned other customers away. Why none of those other customers haven't made a stink is beyond me.
 
#42 ·
InedibleRider said:
Others have definitely had the issue...one dealer readily admitted they had turned other customers away. Why none of those other customers haven't made a stink is beyond me.
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I don't want to invest the time trying to do too deep a dive, because it is easy to get pulled down the rabbit hole and spend hours upon hours, but I tried to find other mention of it on some FB groups and a couple of other forums and came up empty. So that got me to thinking that either not many have had issues with the seals or somebody has the tool needed to fix them? I am not sure which.

But as many posts as there are about every other issue the AT has had across the years, you would think that there would be more about this posted in the various forums and groups? I mean that is a serious issue/problem.

And maybe there is, and I just missed it in a quick scan. Really didn't spend a lot of time on it. ¯\(ツ)/¯
 
#43 ·
InedibleRider said:
Thanks for all the replies and input gents. All I can go off of is what Honda and the dealers are telling me. They are saying there is a tool not listed in the workshop manual that has an electronic component. One tech believes it is actually a Showa tool, but he isn't sure either. I too went through the workshop manual as I planned to do the job myself. When I realized the cost of the manul tools required I shopped the bike as they said they had those tools in stock. It wasn't until a few days later that they called and said a tool related to the ES was unavailable. I am dealing with two major Honda Motorsports dealers and both are on the same page, as is Honda customer relations and the Honda tech line.


My KLR is the only bike to ever strand me. Three weeks in Baja with a self-destructive radiator and parts stuck un customs. I still have that KLR, with 100,000KM on the ODO and the radiator I bought off a guys bike on the side of the road in La Paz so I could get home.
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Boat parts destined to La Paz can be held up with Mexican Customs sometimes up to a month. Can be frustrating planning a vacation down there if you have these dependencies.
 
#44 ·
InedibleRider said:
There was talk about getting the tool by October...

Others have definitely had the issue...one dealer readily admitted they had turned other customers away. Why none of those other customers haven't made a stink is beyond me.
Click to expand...

It would be nice to know what that tool is since it isn't listed in the service manual or anywhere on the internet. Seems like if we can't get a fork seal replaced then that's a huge issue.

I'm going to ask the local Honda dealer when I take mine in for the ECU flash recall. Blown fork seal is a matter of time on these ADV bikes.

It's weird that you can't find any reference or any part number looking everywhere for Showa parts for anything like what they're saying exists.

At least we can ask in advance calling around to dealers if we need to get a fork seal replaced if we know what this electronic Showa tool is.
 
#45 ·
Another thought that occurred. If the tool is in fact a Showa part and not Honda. Would another brand dealer that also uses Showa ES be able to do the work instead? Perhaps that tool is common to Showa regardless of mc brand?
 
#46 ·
I really think the dealers are playing dirt here.
If the solenoid needs replacement, a new one will be installed, at whatever cost is to buy one.
And as said before, all the tools like for a mechanical operation.
There is no mention to "Calibrate" " settings" "Adjusments" on the solenoid which moves certain valve, disc, spool valve, Plunger, etc. You name it.
I do not think those solenoids are measured by Nuclear Magnetic resonance, or Adjusted to microns of play or tolerance.
I think all this game the dealers are playing is just B.S. Sorry. 🤮 :(
 
#47 ·
I find it interesting they refer to the core device as a solenoid. I would have guessed it would be a servo or even a stepper motor. Maybe the device is, but to lock the position without loading the electrical circuit, maybe an integrated solenoid is used somehow for the mechanical requirement?

If indeed the device is a servo/stepper motor, then some homing and tuning might be required during provisioning.
 
#49 ·
DoubleThumper said:
I find it interesting they refer to the core device as a solenoid. I would have guessed it would be a servo or even a stepper motor. Maybe the device is, but to lock the position without loading the electrical circuit, maybe an integrated solenoid is used somehow for the mechanical requirement?

If indeed the device is a servo/stepper motor, then some homing and tuning might be required during provisioning.
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It looks like one side is a solenoid that just has a flow control valve to regulate damping and the other fork has the stroke sensor that probably gathers the information needed to control damping.

I don't see any preload adjustment looking at it, that seems to be rear only which does have a motor to adjust preload.

It actually looks like a pretty simple system that the computer just constantly regulates that solenoid valve to adjust damping to how we set it in the computer preset.

It would be interesting to know what it defaults too if it loses power.

There is no reference anywhere to any tool that is needed for either that front folk solenoid or the stroke sensor. Not at Showa, not on any other bike that has ES, nothing. I'm really curious if that exists to know what to ask for if we need fork seals replaced.

That's really odd to have a service manual that would completely ignore something like that.

The rest of the forks internals are conventional and nearly all the tools you need that are specialty are needed for the conventional fork as well, they are used for both.
 
#50 ·
AIC_Rooster said:
Not sure if anyone linked this yet, but it's from another thread:


It's temporarily out of stock, but it exists and could be purchased and you could do it yourself or shove it in their face and charge them a rental fee.
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All the Honda tools needed are in stock that are listed in the service manual and a few are similar to those. OP mentioned some kind of Showa tool for the electronics but I can't find any reference to it existing anywhere on parts suppliers, Showa, Honda or anywhere.
 
#52 ·
If any company sells something with a warranty and then can't fix that item within that warranty, and just says "Oops, sorry." isn't that a breach of contract? Seems pretty cut and dried.
This would be a Lemon Law case in the US, would it not?
 
#53 ·
InedibleRider said:
Both workshop manuals and parts supply databases have been wrong/incomplete before and they will be again. You could be spot on, but just sayin...
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It's possible.

They said it was some kind of electronic adjustment tool? Not just one of the standard special tools Honda lists in the manual that was unobtainable by them until October? I mean I could see that. I've been waiting on a top box since May. My Aux lights took 3 months to arrive this year. Everything seems to be backordered forever now.

I could see them simply not having that on hand because they might get like 5 fork seals in a year or something.

Parts are a mess with supply chains so it could be as simple as the low rate production EERA fork wrench has been out of production and they can't get it. Can't get the cap off, no seal.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
Lee R said:
It's possible.

They said it was some kind of electronic adjustment tool? Not just one of the standard special tools Honda lists in the manual that was unobtainable by them until October? I mean I could see that. I've been waiting on a top box since May. My Aux lights took 3 months to arrive this year. Everything seems to be backordered forever now.

I could see them simply not having that on hand because they might get like 5 fork seals in a year or something.

Parts are a mess with supply chains so it could be as simple as the low rate production EERA fork wrench has been out of production and they can't get it. Can't get the cap off, no seal.
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It could easily be as simple as that or as complicated as Honda is making it seem. I have no real way of confirming or denying via google. All I know is the manufacturer is saying its representatives can't fix.
the bike right now. I can't see two dealers and Honda Canada getting up to some sort of nonsense over seals.
 
#56 ·
irsh said:
If any company sells something with a warranty and then can't fix that item within that warranty, and just says "Oops, sorry." isn't that a breach of contract? Seems pretty cut and dried.
This would be a Lemon Law case in the US, would it not?
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It seems like they could just pop in a new fork assembly if it's simply something to do with replacing the solenoid and needing a special tool (be it a wrench or some kind of diagnostic/unlock/reprogram thing).

I'm betting it's just one of the speciality tools for the top solenoid or stroke sensor that they can't get because of a supply chain issue. Honda probably only makes a small low rate production of that part and it got sidelined by everything else in the broken supply chains would be my guess.
 
#57 ·
InedibleRider said:
It could easily be as simple as that or as complicated as Honda is making it seem. I have no real way of confirming or denying via google. All I know is the manufacturer is saying its representatives can't fix.
the bike right now. I can't see two dealers and Honda Canada getting up to some sort of nonsense over seals.
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Usually it's the simplest thing so it's probably the wrench/tool for the ES top fork components. Can't take it apart without that. Somebody probably forgot to send an email to start production on it or something stupid.
 
#59 ·
irsh said:
If any company sells something with a warranty and then can't fix that item within that warranty, and just says "Oops, sorry." isn't that a breach of contract? Seems pretty cut and dried.
This would be a Lemon Law case in the US, would it not?
Click to expand...
Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act case I would think.

"There is provided, at the consumer's choice, either a replacement or a full refund if, after a reasonable number of tries, the warrantor is unable to repair the product."

If they can't repair it then they should replace it.


Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk
 
#60 ·
In regard to the solenoid disassembly, I'm actually trying to 3D print the pin wrench to remove the cap on the solenoid adjuster. I have the correct diameter steel dowel pins, now I just need to finish modeling the main tool. I was planning on posting the information here once I finished and tested it. I kind of wish I wouldn't have purchased the ES, but yeah, it's done and now I just need to acquire the means of servicing the forks. I was hoping as time went on and more 2020+ ATAS need fork service, that we'd have more people sharing their experiences with servicing them.
 
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