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Replacing Lithium with AGM

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Discussion starter · #62 ·
DoubleThumper said:
Vehicle-based LiFePO4 batteries are designed with that application in mind, many replacing lead-based batteries.

Good quality LiFePO4 batteries have battery management systems onboard for charging and discharging management. If anything, the bike, ... or more correctly ..., the user of the bike will likely adversely affect the LiFePO4 versus it affecting the bike. Example: The will go into protection mode and shutdown - which typically looks like a dead battery.
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But in this case I am replacing LiFePO4 with AGM, not the other way round.
 
Discussion starter · #64 ·
DoubleThumper said:
The battery will look the same to the bike. Your issue will be more constrained making extra battery real estate available.
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It may be possible Honda engineers made the battery box so tiny, knowing there was little chance of getting anything other than their own £500+ battery in there. :rolleyes:
I know there are other makes that will fit in but that is not the point of this discussion.

Many thanks all.
 
#65 ·
The mosfet voltage regulator is consistently more stable at maintaining charge current at a specific range which benefits the lithium charging requirements. Lithium batteries don't tolerate over charging or being drained. This mosfet design has been around long before the lithium batteries became popular. AGM batteries function just fine with this system which the AT has. It's behind the shock preload adjuster in the open for cooling.

Only concerns are with the trickle charger - maintainer you use. Lithium chargers are different than lead acid chargers in that individual cell voltages are balanced while charged preventing overvoltage. AGM, lead acid, are more tolerant of overcharge charging. They will simply overheat, sulfate, and boil off their electrolyte.
 
#67 ·
There are alternatives to Yuasa's YTZ7S

However, the better known brands: Varta 5 Ah 120 CCA; Exide 6 Ah 100 CCA; Motobatt 6 Ah 100 CCA; all fall a little short of Yuasa's YTZ7S 6.3 Ah, 130 CCA rating. Other brands fall well short of the Yuasa YTZ7S ratings except Platinum's CTZ7-S which at 6 Ah, 130 CCA is very close but at less than half the price, with no reviews or datasheet available I'd choose the Yuasa YTZ7S too.
 
#68 ·
Jag, more practical approach going with the AGM considering your charger. I'm ultra careful toping off my Lipo on my 2018 in the winter. Don't have the right charger. I pull it off my battery tender when it blinks 80% charged. If I forget $$$$. I'm learning now lipos like a "storage" charge of less voltage.

AGMs are a really good upgrade for a lead acid. My we all learn together.....power on!
 
#70 · (Edited)
Hankiss007 said:
Hi, I bought this one :
Shido LTZ8V Lithium Ion Motorcycle Battery to fit CRF1000AL Africa Twin (18-19) | eBay

Battery cmpartment is quite small in 2019 model. This one fits perfectly. And it has 260ACC.
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I'm confused again, is that 260ACC a typo for 260 CCA? If so that'll be 260 CCA (PbEq) which is a made up lithium battery sales speak rating to compare a reassuringly expensive lithium battery in a favourable light to a lead-acid battery which is rated at CCA(EN).

It's chalk and cheese or apples and oranges whatever you prefer ;)
 
#71 ·
Art said:
I'm confused again, is that 260ACC a typo for 260 CCA? If so that'll be 260 CCA (PbEq) which is a made up lithium battery sales speak rating to compare a reassuringly expensive lithium battery in a favourable light to a lead-acid battery which is rated at CCA(EN).

It's chalk and cheese or apples and oranges whatever you prefer ;)
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Of course it is a typo, it should be CCA which stands for Cold Cranking Amps
 
#73 · (Edited)
Hankiss007 said:
... it should be CCA which stands for Cold Cranking Amps
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To be clear lithium batteries cannot be tested for a Cold Cranking Amps rating which are specific automotive industry standard test applicable to lead-acid starter batteries and is expressed as either CCA or CCA(EN).

When you see CCA applied to lithium batteries it is an acronym for Continuous Cranking Amps commonly and confusingly expressed as CCA or CCA(PbEq). There are no automotive industry standard tests for lithium starter batteries, this leaves each individual battery manufacturer to decide how they want to test and rate their lithium batteries which is how almost identical lithium batteries can end up with such wide discrepancies in the claimed rating.
 
#74 ·
I replaced the pricey Honda battery with a BS02 lithium, it's smaller than the Honda battery but comes with foam to pack out the battery box, been over a year with it and no problems, I use a NOCO Genius2 charger with a cable from battery to leave it plugged in when away at work, the charger is also a trickle charge as well, I have had no issues at all with this.
Having a normal battery on it side would that be a problem ?
BS02 battery price in Thailand was 100 USD and the charger and lead was about 115 USD.

View attachment 86340 View attachment 86341 View attachment 86342 View attachment 86343
 
#75 ·
JakeDix said:
Having a normal battery on it side would that be a problem ?
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What is a normal battery? You've been reading too many pro lithium battery reviews, reports and sales speak that generally make cross comparisons to flooded wet cell and GEL cell lead-acid batteries. AGM lead-acid batteries are sealed for life, non-spillable, maintenance free and can be mounted in many configurations

The lithium battery vs lead-acid battery debate should concentrate on cranking vs current draw. A lithium battery may be better for cranking when the battery's level of charge is low, providing it's not so low for the Battery Management System (BMS) to shut the battery down vs a lead-acid battery's level of charge that is less likely to be so low that it affects cranking performance.

The real question is do we really need more cranking power than a lead-acid battery can deliver?

If your motorcycle is a daily ride you're unlikely to notice any difference between a lead-acid battery and an equivalent lithium battery, however, if you park your motorcycle up for weeks on end you will and the better choice here will be a lead-acid battery which is less susceptible to standby current drain. Of course, if you're prepared to faff about with reassuringly expensive maintenance chargers to prevent a reassuringly expensive lithium battery from going flat or shutting down and you're pockets are deep enough...
 
#76 ·
Art said:
What is a normal battery? You've been reading too many pro lithium battery reviews, reports and sales speak that generally make cross comparisons to flooded wet cell and GEL cell lead-acid batteries. AGM lead-acid batteries are sealed for life, non-spillable, maintenance free and can be mounted in many configurations

The lithium battery vs lead-acid battery debate should concentrate on cranking vs current draw. A lithium battery may be better for cranking when the battery's level of charge is low, providing it's not so low for the Battery Management System (BMS) to shut the battery down vs a lead-acid battery's level of charge that is less likely to be so low that it affects cranking performance.

The real question is do we really need more cranking power than a lead-acid battery can deliver?

If your motorcycle is a daily ride you're unlikely to notice any difference between a lead-acid battery and an equivalent lithium battery, however, if you park your motorcycle up for weeks on end you will and the better choice here will be a lead-acid battery which is less susceptible to standby current drain. Of course, if you're prepared to faff about with reassuringly expensive maintenance chargers to prevent a reassuringly expensive lithium battery from going flat or shutting down and you're pockets are deep enough...
Click to expand...
Yes my pockets are deep enough, I ain't a battery geek, just saying Lithium is my preferred Battery on all my bikes and scooter...
 
#77 ·
Art said:
What is a normal battery? You've been reading too many pro lithium battery reviews, reports and sales speak that generally make cross comparisons to flooded wet cell and GEL cell lead-acid batteries. AGM lead-acid batteries are sealed for life, non-spillable, maintenance free and can be mounted in many configurations

The lithium battery vs lead-acid battery debate should concentrate on cranking vs current draw. A lithium battery may be better for cranking when the battery's level of charge is low, providing it's not so low for the Battery Management System (BMS) to shut the battery down vs a lead-acid battery's level of charge that is less likely to be so low that it affects cranking performance.

The real question is do we really need more cranking power than a lead-acid battery can deliver?

If your motorcycle is a daily ride you're unlikely to notice any difference between a lead-acid battery and an equivalent lithium battery, however, if you park your motorcycle up for weeks on end you will and the better choice here will be a lead-acid battery which is less susceptible to standby current drain. Of course, if you're prepared to faff about with reassuringly expensive maintenance chargers to prevent a reassuringly expensive lithium battery from going flat or shutting down and you're pockets are deep enough...
Click to expand...
For now, it appears normal battery refers to any non lithium battery be it lead acid or AGM. In time, Lithium will most likely become the norm with other batteries referred to as legacy or some similar term. At that point many of us who grew up with lead acid and AGM batteries will have a new group of people calling us dinosaurs.

Do we need more cranking power? That depends on where you live and when you ride. I have been riding since 1971 and live in Ontario Canada. Seven bikes had lead acid based batteries with the AT being my first bike to use a lithium battery. The AT has always started for me on the rare occasions I wanted to start it up in an unheated garage during winter with no preparation.

With the other bikes, entirely different story. I found the manufacturers tend to place the smallest capacity battery in the bike that will permit the bike to start with use of the starter motor in mild temperatures. Winter, early spring and late fall in Canada, cold starts typically result in the starter turning the bike over fast enough to start with no successful results. The stiff engine oil results in the starter drawing so much battery power nothing is left for the ignition. Continued cranking merely results in a depleted battery. That was okay with pre 1976 bikes. In that situation I could use the kick starter knowing the engine would fire on the first or second kick. Without the kick starter, you will have to use a trickle charger or battery maintainer, jumper cables, place a heater near the base of the engine before attempting to start or move the bike to a heated area and wait for it to warm up. Since the battery boxes are normally built to accommodate the designed battery only, there is little hope of placing a higher capacity same tech battery in the bike. If the original battery was lead acid wet cell, it was sometimes possible to use an AGM as a better replacement. I will mention that lithium was not an option when I had the earlier bikes. Otherwise the compact nature of lithium batteries compared to AGM may have permitted a quick upgrade to battery capacity. Motorcyclist are not likely to see an improvement in battery box sizes. As the new batteries become more powerful and more compact, battery box sizes are most likely to continue decreasing. As batteries become even more reliable, they are going to be placed even deeper in the bowels of the bike frame creating more accessibility issues. It will be interesting to watch how things work out even if we don't like the results.
 
#78 ·
The coldest I've ever started a stone cold motorcycle in [southern] Ontario, Canada was at air ambient -25C (no heated storage). That was an AGM backed Honda CB1100 and a LiFePO4 backed Honda CRF1000. Both took a few extra crank rotations, but start they did.

If they were my older carbureted bikes, then forget it. They simply would have puckered up sucking in Arctic air.
 
#79 ·
Bill J said:
For now, it appears normal battery refers to any non lithium battery be it lead acid or AGM. In time, Lithium will most likely become the norm with other batteries referred to as legacy or some similar term. At that point many of us who grew up with lead acid and AGM batteries will have a new group of people calling us dinosaurs.

Do we need more cranking power? That depends on where you live and when you ride. I have been riding since 1971 and live in Ontario Canada. Seven bikes had lead acid based batteries with the AT being my first bike to use a lithium battery. The AT has always started for me on the rare occasions I wanted to start it up in an unheated garage during winter with no preparation.

With the other bikes, entirely different story. I found the manufacturers tend to place the smallest capacity battery in the bike that will permit the bike to start with use of the starter motor in mild temperatures. Winter, early spring and late fall in Canada, cold starts typically result in the starter turning the bike over fast enough to start with no successful results. The stiff engine oil results in the starter drawing so much battery power nothing is left for the ignition. Continued cranking merely results in a depleted battery. That was okay with pre 1976 bikes. In that situation I could use the kick starter knowing the engine would fire on the first or second kick. Without the kick starter, you will have to use a trickle charger or battery maintainer, jumper cables, place a heater near the base of the engine before attempting to start or move the bike to a heated area and wait for it to warm up. Since the battery boxes are normally built to accommodate the designed battery only, there is little hope of placing a higher capacity same tech battery in the bike. If the original battery was lead acid wet cell, it was sometimes possible to use an AGM as a better replacement. I will mention that lithium was not an option when I had the earlier bikes. Otherwise the compact nature of lithium batteries compared to AGM may have permitted a quick upgrade to battery capacity. Motorcyclist are not likely to see an improvement in battery box sizes. As the new batteries become more powerful and more compact, battery box sizes are most likely to continue decreasing. As batteries become even more reliable, they are going to be placed even deeper in the bowels of the bike frame creating more accessibility issues. It will be interesting to watch how things work out even if we don't like the results.
Click to expand...
AGM is a lead acid battery too,
 
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