[DCTFAN]

Unfortunately, the DCT cannot 'pop' the clutch independently of the engine power.
Current programming comes close to the manual (as the 3rd graph shows),
but the DCT clutch has to fully engage from a disengaged state- by design.
.
Unless there is a programming change, this will always be the case.
Hence, it will always be harder for DCT to wheelie compared to a manual.

 

[gzrglyde]

After reading and watching the videos on TC and the G switch, it seems to me as a mostly inexperienced off road rider, that I should keep the G switch on when riding in sand, etc? Or on muddy dirt roads?

 

[DCTFAN]

After reading and watching the videos on TC and the G switch, it seems to me as a mostly inexperienced off road rider, that I should keep the G switch on when riding in sand, etc? Or on muddy dirt roads?

IMO, you should ride the same segment in both modes until you can determine which better suits you.
Same goes for TC settings and whether you want rear ABS off or not.
It's your menu to choose and once you decide, you can have the cherry on top :smile2:

 

[Old Can Ride]

Hello DCTFAN, my old riding friend. Been awhile since i have seen you. I turn the G off and the rear ABS off. My knees are almost back to normal, so I should once again be able to try and keep up with you. Still remember that day in the Appalachian mountains, when you just flew by me.

I am back to riding, but now I have “the great Africa Twin dash problem”. With my current age and knees I did put the bike into a Honda shop, but they have had it for over 2 weeks now... Sure want my bike and fast. Yes, I am ready to take off to the Appalachian’s again.

However, I still have not forgiven you for getting your Africa Twin DCT in 2016 before I did. Can not believe that you just walked into an Atlanta dealership, and bought the bike as you did. Great hearing from you, and I am ready to ride as soon as I get the Twin back....

 

[AT-Dragon]

What I find kinda puzzling, is that, it’s all kinda a big hush magic secret with Honda... they don’t just say in easy terms here’s what it does while in this mode and here’s the conditions we designed it to used for. I mean come on! You know they did hundreds of hours of real world testing say ok when in these kinda driving conditions it would handle better if the power level could be set “here’ and downshifting “here” and torque control “here” ... I guess it’s maybe some liability issue thing(?) IF Honda said hey when on gravel use these settings then some idiot set it to those settings and end up doing a face plant then they would probably try to sue them. Kinda like the same idiots that think ABS helps you stop quicker in slippery situations...

 

[silverfox966]

What I find kinda puzzling, is that, it’s all kinda a big hush magic secret with Honda... they don’t just say in easy terms here’s what it does while in this mode and here’s the conditions we designed it to used for. I mean come on! You know they did hundreds of hours of real world testing say ok when in these kinda driving conditions it would handle better if the power level could be set “here’ and downshifting “here” and torque control “here” ... I guess it’s maybe some liability issue thing(?) IF Honda said hey when on gravel use these settings then some idiot set it to those settings and end up doing a face plant then they would probably try to sue them. Kinda like the same idiots that think ABS helps you stop quicker in slippery situations...

Don’t you think abs helps us stop faster in slippery condition? Com’on! It does.

 

[AT-Dragon]

Don’t you think abs helps us stop faster in slippery condition? Com’on! It does.

A big misconception ABS does NOT help you stop faster or sooner it is NOT. designed for that. It IS designed for control allowing the vehicle to remain in control and steer away from contact (hitting something). Now will it unintentionally help stop sooner in an emergency situation, yes, most likely it will. The simple facts are: Accident rates INCREASED with ABS because of that falsehood - Anyone with a little experience and practice can stop their vehicle sooner than an idiot just slamming on the brakes with booth feet.. This is why it is not on (or even required) in professional racing. Think about how it really works - your tire basically brakes, rolls, brakes, rolls, brakes, ROLLS! compared to a tire that is continuously braking - what scenario would stop sooner? YES and tire with 0 traction and sliding will stop much much later and of course at a farther distance - there’s were the unintentional part comes in - it dose help keep the tire from skidding (to much). So you end up with; a tire that has 0% braking force increasing to 100% back down to approx. 1%-50% (the skidding part) back to 0% then increasing back to 100% braking in essence braking 50% of the time and steering 50% of the time, hence that is the vibration/rattling in the brake pedal the vehicle releasing and reapplying the brakes. So what vehicle would you think would stop sooner? One braking 100% of the time (not skidding of course) or one braking (basically) 50% of the time...

 

[Shadowjack]

ABS is intended to allow you control to avoid hitting whatever is in your way. But people just freeze and hit it anyway.

 

[silverfox966]

A big misconception ABS does NOT help you stop faster or sooner it is NOT. designed for that. It IS designed for control allowing the vehicle to remain in control and steer away from contact (hitting something). Now will it unintentionally help stop sooner in an emergency situation, yes, most likely it will. The simple facts are: Accident rates INCREASED with ABS because of that falsehood - Anyone with a little experience and practice can stop their vehicle sooner than an idiot just slamming on the brakes with booth feet.. This is why it is not on (or even required) in professional racing. Think about how it really works - your tire basically brakes, rolls, brakes, rolls, brakes, ROLLS! compared to a tire that is continuously braking - what scenario would stop sooner? YES and tire with 0 traction and sliding will stop much much later and of course at a farther distance - there’s were the unintentional part comes in - it dose help keep the tire from skidding (to much). So you end up with; a tire that has 0% braking force increasing to 100% back down to approx. 1%-50% (the skidding part) back to 0% then increasing back to 100% braking in essence braking 50% of the time and steering 50% of the time, hence that is the vibration/rattling in the brake pedal the vehicle releasing and reapplying the brakes. So what vehicle would you think would stop sooner? One braking 100% of the time (not skidding of course) or one braking (basically) 50% of the time...

I dont argue with that at all. What I meant is that for most of us it is quicker and safer to have ABS. BTW it has never activated on my AT but i do dare brake harder than I did before or I would if I didn’t have the “safety net”. So i stop faster. When something happens unexpected ifor ex. In the last 30 years i only lost my front end twice. If i had abs ......

I loved my MTS 1100S so much. If it had an abs i would still have it.

 

[AT-Dragon]

I dont argue with that at all. What I meant is that for most of us it is quicker and safer to have ABS. BTW it has never activated on my AT but i do dare brake harder than I did before or I would if I didn’t have the “safety net”. So i stop faster. When something happens unexpected ifor ex. In the last 30 years i only lost my front end twice. If i had abs ......

I loved my MTS 1100S so much. If it had an abs i would still have it.

Agreed much safer to have than to not have, ESPECIALLY for the front wheel on a heavy motorcycle...
BTW here’s the report on motorcycle stopping distance abs vrs non-abs:
https://msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc2006/Green-Comparison_of_Stopping_Distance-Paper.pdf

 

[Daniel Solin]

is it finally working the clutch?

It's your menu to choose and once you decide, you can have the cherry on top :smile2:

Hi. New to this forum and only registered because I was seeking information on DCT smoothness at low speed. Anyway, just went out to try Gravel-mode, and maybe it's only in my (ignorant) head, but I thought it made a huge difference! I've had two DCTs - a 2012 NC700X (no G-button) and now a 2019 ATAS, and although I generally love DCT, the "jerkiness" at low speeds have sometimes made me long for a clutch lever. On my previously mentioned test ride (on small roads I drive several times every day) it felt like the bike was "working the clutch" at low speed just as I've always wanted it to. Does it make any sense or am I imagining this? :smile2:

Edit: By "Gravel-mode" I meant the G-button.

 

[silverfox966]

Very useful report. Cheers

 

[mike5100]

Hi. New to this forum and only registered because I was seeking information on DCT smoothness at low speed. Anyway, just went out to try Gravel-mode, and maybe it's only in my (ignorant) head, but I thought it made a huge difference! I've had two DCTs - a 2012 NC700X (no G-button) and now a 2019 ATAS, and although I generally love DCT, the "jerkiness" at low speeds have sometimes made me long for a clutch lever. On my previously mentioned test ride (on small roads I drive several times every day) it felt like the bike was "working the clutch" at low speed just as I've always wanted it to. Does it make any sense or am I imagining this? :smile2:

Edit: By "Gravel-mode" I meant the G-button.

You'd think wouldn't you? But from what people on here could discover by looking at all press releases and technical documents, engaging the G button produces less clutch slip not more. In other words clutch engagements were quicker to complete. I think there were a couple of threads on it.
Mike

 

[Daniel Solin]

You'd think wouldn't you? But from what people on here could discover by looking at all press releases and technical documents, engaging the G button produces less clutch slip not more. In other words clutch engagements were quicker to complete. I think there were a couple of threads on it.
Mike

Well, I am only more confused then... anyway, imagination or not, I am much happier now. Have been riding in G-mode today and get the same feeling as yesterday. Thanks for your answer. Will look up those other threads (probably just to add up to the confusion :smile2.

 

[Geyper]

Hi friends. Does somebody tried to do an acceleration test on-road with G-button on ; in theory, the throtle has to be more responsive due to a quick shift between gears. What do you think?
Chers!

Pd: waiting for my used 17' AT-DCT

 

[DoubleThumper]

Hey @Geyper - welcome to the Forum.

Feel free to introduce yourself at the New Member Introductions area of the Forum.

 

[Little Bill Daggett]

Fascinating discussion..

DCT = two drive trains working in parallel. Apparently it takes 1/700 of a second to change from one gear to the next preselected gear. None of us can do that with a clutch and foot shifter. No wonder the race bikes have them eh?

I assumed that the 'G' button was to prevent the rear wheel from losing traction on gravel and spinning...maybe leading to a loss of control and the back wheel stepping out...but some riders like to do that sort of thing and may understandably think that the button is to assist that sort of riding.

In my own humble opinion I think that there is confusion because the description in the Honda user manual is inadequate due to translation issues. I go with my original assumption that the G is to prevent immediate and instant connection to the drive train through the throttle, by the rider, which will affect the stability of the bike on loose surfaces. An experienced gravel rider has the choice to do without it whereas I would turn it on to save me going arxx over tit.

 

[DCTFAN]

In summary, why did Honda DCT team decide to add the 'G' button at additional cost?
Reading the few published interviews with Honda engineers, I formed an opinion that makes sense to me:

From the start the center piece of DCT was the "Adaptive Clutch Control" as Honda calls it.
It is the main feature that prevents stalling and 'uber' smooth clutch control to eliminate the banging of helmets with a pillion rider.

Offroading is no fun without the rear kicking out a bit, the ability to 'roost', getting out of sand/mud or the ability to loft the front to clear obstacles.
The AT had to be offroad capable and without the G-mode it would never be deemed offroad capable.

For that, the team had to figure out how to offset the "smoothness" of the DCT for offroad riding.

The G was not in the previous DCT system and got added only during the ongoing Africa Twin development.
None of the DCT bikes before the AT were touted to be offroad capable.

Thus the 'G' mode was added near the end of the AT development phase, almost as an afterthought.
The G mode takes out the smoothness and makes the DCT behave more like 'popping the manual clutch'.
This made the team happy and they rested in peace.

PS. I don't think they took it far enough, as it is still harder to wheelie a DCT than a manual transmission AT.

 

[Little Bill Daggett]

In summary, why did Honda DCT team decide to add the 'G' button at additional cost?
Reading the few published interviews with Honda engineers, I formed an opinion that makes sense to me:

From the start the center piece of DCT was the "Adaptive Clutch Control" as Honda calls it.
It is the main feature that prevents stalling and 'uber' smooth clutch control to eliminate the banging of helmets with a pillion rider.

Offroading is no fun without the rear kicking out a bit, the ability to 'roost', getting out of sand/mud or the ability to loft the front to clear obstacles.
The AT had to be offroad capable and without the G-mode it would never be deemed offroad capable.

For that, the team had to figure out how to offset the "smoothness" of the DCT for offroad riding.

The G was not in the previous DCT system and got added only during the ongoing Africa Twin development.
None of the DCT bikes before the AT were touted to be offroad capable.

Thus the 'G' mode was added near the end of the AT development phase, almost as an afterthought.
The G mode takes out the smoothness and makes the DCT behave more like 'popping the manual clutch'.
This made the team happy and they rested in peace.

PS. I don't think they took it far enough, as it is still harder to wheelie a DCT than a manual transmission AT.

Maybe it would be helpful if somebody did a video of the AT on gravel, accelerating with the G button on and with it off? I've got a gravel drive and parking area and my G button tends to reduce the power to the back wheel to prevent losing traction??

 

[BumpyRider]

Maybe it would be helpful if somebody did a video of the AT on gravel, accelerating with the G button on and with it off? I've got a gravel drive and parking area and my G button tends to reduce the power to the back wheel to prevent losing traction??

Yup, all these special electronic settings seem to be a bunch of snake oil doing little to nothing for the average rider. Honda can't even be bothered to provide proper use case examples or decent marketing info.