[Beowulf]

Well, it is being pronounced "mostly done" with waiting to hear how the test ride went.

Got the right Baja Designs lights.

Got the Rotopax mounted.

Got the winch mounted.

Got the right Mitas Dakar EO7 tires on.

Got the front rack sorted and on.

Got a car battery in the trunk for deep reserve power.

Cobbled a rear wheel assembly with a hub built out of billet aluminum that was designed for a standard vs. and adventure sport. This created some heated discussions around shims, spacers and sensor rings.

Russel Day Long saddle on order; early December delivery, at home.

If the DCT functions, ABS functions, and Traction Control isn't in crazy mode from a 4.3% front wheel OD/tire circumference shrink, I will pick it up next week.

Really looking forward to test drives around the Pacific Northwest and on down through the desert, back to AZ. Planning lots of stops and a leisurely pace to get acclimated to the way different handling characteristics.

Latest photos:

 

[DoubleThumper]

Savour slowly that beast. Some special soul is there waiting for you to journey with.

 

[DCTFAN]

Late to the build but congrats on the progress. (I never was notified from your Tagging @DCTFAN ) but I just caught up with updates.

If I understand correctly, you decided to go with 18" rims x3?
As you test the rig's driveability with a 2021 ATAS DCT ES
Here is what I know about DCT and changing rims diameter
(based on my experience with the 19/17 combo by Rally Raid):

Scenario1: retain most of OEM programming and electronic features: ABS HSTC CC etc.
the front only requires a modified ABS ring
the rear will not accept any changes in rotational speed other than OEM *

Scenario2: turn off all rider aids and run with it
all the changes affected by the different wheel sizes are dealt with by turning off all rider aids: ABS to rear, HSTC, Wheelie control etc.
may have to run the rig in manual mode more often than let the DCT shift in auto mode as the shift points will be off a bit.

* the rear wheel speed is compared to engine speed (VS sensor on crankshaft)
This is the main problem that can only be solved via ECU rewrite as changing ABS ring in rear or sprocket size will not satisfy the algorithms with VS sensor inputs.

For those reasons alone, I gave up swapping the rear and only used the 19" front.
With a 17" rear the bike is rideable, but with adverse changes in ABS, HSTC and DCT shift points for DCT.
I have no idea how much worse it gets with newer 2020+ AT DCT models with integrated IMU.

PS. disabling the ES feature defaults the system to the MID setting which is not too bad.

 

[Beowulf]

Late to the build but congrats on the progress. (I never was notified from your Tagging @DCTFAN ) but I just caught up with updates.

If I understand correctly, you decided to go with 18" rims x3?
As you test the rig's driveability with a 2021 ATAS DCT ES
Here is what I know about DCT and changing rims diameter
(based on my experience with the 19/17 combo by Rally Raid):

Scenario1: retain most of OEM programming and electronic features: ABS HSTC CC etc.
the front only requires a modified ABS ring
the rear will not accept any changes in rotational speed other than OEM *

Scenario2: turn off all rider aids and run with it
all the changes affected by the different wheel sizes are dealt with by turning off all rider aids: ABS to rear, HSTC, Wheelie control etc.
may have to run the rig in manual mode more often than let the DCT shift in auto mode as the shift points will be off a bit.

* the rear wheel speed is compared to engine speed (VS sensor on crankshaft)
This is the main problem that can only be solved via ECU rewrite as changing ABS ring in rear or sprocket size will not satisfy the algorithms with VS sensor inputs.

For those reasons alone, I gave up swapping the rear and only used the 19" front.
With a 17" rear the bike is rideable, but with adverse changes in ABS, HSTC and DCT shift points for DCT.
I have no idea how much worse it gets with newer 2020+ AT DCT models with integrated IMU.

PS. disabling the ES feature defaults the system to the MID setting which is not too bad.

Thanks @DCTFAN , that is both helpful and encouraging.

Yes, my current build and planning retains the same size wheel/tire combo as the rear, 150/70-18 at all three points. I am hoping to not have to cut a new sensor ring for the front, with a 4.1% reduced diameter OD of the tire, but am keeping that option on the table, if needed. I wonder if this change in diameter is small enough to fall within the program's margin of error.

I would love to keep all the rider aids available as optional help, but guess I rode quite a few years without them, if I should have to turn them off, for some reason.

I have not thrown a gearing change into the mix, yet, at the rear sprocket, but am contemplating adding a couple of teeth, after everything else is sorted. It sounds like this is painful and would require an ECU rewrite to make work, from your post above. Have you tried changing ECU settings yet?

 

[DCTFAN]

Thanks @DCTFAN , that is both helpful and encouraging.

Yes, my current build and planning retains the same size wheel/tire combo as the rear, 150/70-18 at all three points. I am hoping to not have to cut a new sensor ring for the front, with a 4.1% reduced diameter OD of the tire, but am keeping that option on the table, if needed. I wonder if this change in diameter is small enough to fall within the program's margin of error.

I would love to keep all the rider aids available as optional help, but guess I rode quite a few years without them, if I should have to turn them off, for some reason.

I have not thrown a gearing change into the mix, yet, at the rear sprocket, but am contemplating adding a couple of teeth, after everything else is sorted. It sounds like this is painful and would require an ECU rewrite to make work, from your post above. Have you tried changing ECU settings yet?

No. Above my paygrade.
However there is an active member on this forum who has a source for writing/flashing a new firmware for the ECU.
I believe he recently posted about it @Ghostrider.1127

 

[Beowulf]

Well, so I have had "Black Betty," the Africa Twin/DMC Expedition rig (my first sidecar) for a little over 24 hours in my grubby mitts... so how is it going, you ask?

We will not get into a couple of the issues that Jay, over at DMC Sidecars, is committed to working out, until we have final resolutions, maybe Monday. How happy I am will depend greatly on the resolutions...

However, I LOVE the rig.

As mentioned above, I ran it out on the 410 from Buckley, WA to just up to the pass headed towards Yakima, on paved mildly twisty roads. I got somewhat over my fear of flipping it over after half an hour or so, and really started to enjoy the ride. I was a little sad they shut the road down for fire, but better that, than end up looking like a singed cartoon coyote!

There is definitely a side car delay factor in play. Everywhere I stopped people came up and started conversations. I believe my social life may pick up a little.

So I still had a good part of the afternoon to ride somewhere, so I ran out south of Buckley down the 165 through Wilkeson and out a dirt road to Rainier State park. The road was quite a nice washboard filled with rocks most of the way, with tight twisty sections. Can you say "power slide?"

I found the front spring rate to be too soft; bottoming with almost max preload. Will need to swap those for some heavier ones. I backed off the preload on the bike rear a few clicks and almost all the way out on the hack. The rig basically floated over the washboards, while keeping enough contact to stay in a mostly appealing track. I learned to straddle big rocks rather quickly. Rear and hack springs are almost spot on, with quite a range of preload left for heavy loads.

Overall, put about 100 miles on the clock and had a blast. Nothing fell off, the DCT shifts as expected, the ABS seems happy and the traction control performed as expected on the various settings. In this case, at least, Honda is tolerant of a 4.3% differential speed between front and rear wheels. Did not twiddle the front speed ring to a different hole count.

Was just a little concerned about having enough juice to keep up the pace with my AZ friends. I think the 101 hp is sufficient to pull the heavy "extreme duty" framed expedition car. Acceleration was still brisk, and I found no speed limit that caused any dismay. (that I could not get up to in short order.)

So, all that said, I really like the rig... there are issues, we will see how they get resolved.


About 1/2 way to Yakima, place with very friendly clerks:

First peak at Mt. Rainier

There's a lake there, somewhere:

Headed back:

Wilkerson Log

Got Dirt?

Well earned steak burrito:

Attached Files:

 

[Lupolee]

Fantastic, well done to all involved. That is some hard graft that has gone into making that, I look forward to seeing your stories of it in the wild. 👏🏻

 

[Ghostrider.1127]

No. Above my paygrade.
However there is an active member on this forum who has a source for writing/flashing a new firmware for the ECU.
I believe he recently posted about it @Ghostrider.1127

Main ECU flash will not solve DCT ,HSTC or ABS issue , need to flash every single module for a solution. No one offer it , cause no one had tools and can work on this encrypted .

 

[DoubleThumper]

A wonderful introduction @Beowulf to Black Betty. I am sure it is hard not to look and talk about it in the flesh.

 

[DCTFAN]

Well, so I have had "Black Betty," the Africa Twin/DMC Expedition rig (my first sidecar) for a little over 24 hours in my grubby mitts... so how is it going, you ask?

We will not get into a couple of the issues that Jay, over at DMC Sidecars, is committed to working out, until we have final resolutions, maybe Monday. How happy I am will depend greatly on the resolutions...

However, I LOVE the rig.

As mentioned above, I ran it out on the 410 from Buckley, WA to just up to the pass headed towards Yakima, on paved mildly twisty roads. I got somewhat over my fear of flipping it over after half an hour or so, and really started to enjoy the ride. I was a little sad they shut the road down for fire, but better that, than end up looking like a singed cartoon coyote!

There is definitely a side car delay factor in play. Everywhere I stopped people came up and started conversations. I believe my social life may pick up a little.

So I still had a good part of the afternoon to ride somewhere, so I ran out south of Buckley down the 165 through Wilkeson and out a dirt road to Rainier State park. The road was quite a nice washboard filled with rocks most of the way, with tight twisty sections. Can you say "power slide?"

I found the front spring rate to be too soft; bottoming with almost max preload. Will need to swap those for some heavier ones. I backed off the preload on the bike rear a few clicks and almost all the way out on the hack. The rig basically floated over the washboards, while keeping enough contact to stay in a mostly appealing track. I learned to straddle big rocks rather quickly. Rear and hack springs are almost spot on, with quite a range of preload left for heavy loads.

Overall, put about 100 miles on the clock and had a blast. Nothing fell off, the DCT shifts as expected, the ABS seems happy and the traction control performed as expected on the various settings. In this case, at least, Honda is tolerant of a 4.3% differential speed between front and rear wheels. Did not twiddle the front speed ring to a different hole count.

Was just a little concerned about having enough juice to keep up the pace with my AZ friends. I think the 101 hp is sufficient to pull the heavy "extreme duty" framed expedition car. Acceleration was still brisk, and I found no speed limit that caused any dismay. (that I could not get up to in short order.)

So, all that said, I really like the rig... there are issues, we will see how they get resolved.


About 1/2 way to Yakima, place with very friendly clerks:

First peak at Mt. Rainier

There's a lake there, somewhere:

Headed back:

Wilkerson Log

Got Dirt?

Well earned steak burrito:

Attached Files:

Glad to hear you love it.
Not all errors are indicated on the dash.

.
I'd check DTC errors if any have registered before taking it home.

 

[Little Bill Daggett]

Well, so I have had "Black Betty," the Africa Twin/DMC Expedition rig (my first sidecar) for a little over 24 hours in my grubby mitts... so how is it going, you ask?

We will not get into a couple of the issues that Jay, over at DMC Sidecars, is committed to working out, until we have final resolutions, maybe Monday. How happy I am will depend greatly on the resolutions...

However, I LOVE the rig.

As mentioned above, I ran it out on the 410 from Buckley, WA to just up to the pass headed towards Yakima, on paved mildly twisty roads. I got somewhat over my fear of flipping it over after half an hour or so, and really started to enjoy the ride. I was a little sad they shut the road down for fire, but better that, than end up looking like a singed cartoon coyote!

There is definitely a side car delay factor in play. Everywhere I stopped people came up and started conversations. I believe my social life may pick up a little.

So I still had a good part of the afternoon to ride somewhere, so I ran out south of Buckley down the 165 through Wilkeson and out a dirt road to Rainier State park. The road was quite a nice washboard filled with rocks most of the way, with tight twisty sections. Can you say "power slide?"

I found the front spring rate to be too soft; bottoming with almost max preload. Will need to swap those for some heavier ones. I backed off the preload on the bike rear a few clicks and almost all the way out on the hack. The rig basically floated over the washboards, while keeping enough contact to stay in a mostly appealing track. I learned to straddle big rocks rather quickly. Rear and hack springs are almost spot on, with quite a range of preload left for heavy loads.

Overall, put about 100 miles on the clock and had a blast. Nothing fell off, the DCT shifts as expected, the ABS seems happy and the traction control performed as expected on the various settings. In this case, at least, Honda is tolerant of a 4.3% differential speed between front and rear wheels. Did not twiddle the front speed ring to a different hole count.

Was just a little concerned about having enough juice to keep up the pace with my AZ friends. I think the 101 hp is sufficient to pull the heavy "extreme duty" framed expedition car. Acceleration was still brisk, and I found no speed limit that caused any dismay. (that I could not get up to in short order.)

So, all that said, I really like the rig... there are issues, we will see how they get resolved.


About 1/2 way to Yakima, place with very friendly clerks:

First peak at Mt. Rainier

There's a lake there, somewhere:

Headed back:

Wilkerson Log

Got Dirt?

Well earned steak burrito:

Attached Files:

Ohhhh man. I totally love it. But tell me....is that the side stand I can see in one of those photos? What's all that about?? Back in the day I had a sidecar wheel brake which helped keep the rig straight under stress. Has it got linked brakes nowadays? Fantastic to see it on the road. As a pioneer I'm sure you will come across some teething troubles but what an achievement. I salute you.

 

[FIRE UP]

Man Beowulf,
That front tire looks SERIOUS! Sure gotta be a different feeling piloting that three-wheeled machine! Hope all is well.
Scott

 

[Beowulf]

Ohhhh man. I totally love it. But tell me....is that the side stand I can see in one of those photos? What's all that about?? Back in the day I had a sidecar wheel brake which helped keep the rig straight under stress. Has it got linked brakes nowadays? Fantastic to see it on the road. As a pioneer I'm sure you will come across some teething troubles but what an achievement. I salute you.

Yep, the side stand and the chunk of wood I attached for a foot are still on it. Will probably pull those when I get back to AZ, but for now, a convenient place to carry it home.

Yeah, there are some teething issues. I had to learn way more about how to set up a sidecar to go down the road straight than I really wanted to at this particular moment, but fortunately for me, some extremely kind people over on the Adventure rider "hacks" forum helped a brother out... One gent even loaned me tools and his garage, with much helpful advice, over the weekend.

Have about 400 miles on it, now, so getting to know what behavior is expected. Will likely rewire most of the bike side connections, as well. I'm kind of fussy about wiring.

Goes down the road great; hit 75 on an interstate with no lack of stability. Buzzed around downtown Seattle with no issues in the traffic. Out in the country, it is a hoot in the gravel. Power slides all day...

 

[Beowulf]

Yep, the side stand and the chunk of wood I attached for a foot are still on it. Will probably pull those when I get back to AZ, but for now, a convenient place to carry it home.

Yeah, there are some teething issues. I had to learn way more about how to set up a sidecar to go down the road straight than I really wanted to at this particular moment, but fortunately for me, some extremely kind people over on the Adventure rider "hacks" forum helped a brother out... One gent even loaned me tools and his garage, with much helpful advice, over the weekend.

Have about 400 miles on it, now, so getting to know what behavior is expected. Will likely rewire most of the bike side connections, as well. I'm kind of fussy about wiring.

Goes down the road great; hit 75 on an interstate with no lack of stability. Buzzed around downtown Seattle with no issues in the traffic. Out in the country, it is a hoot in the gravel. Power slides all day...

Oh, yes, the rear brake is connected to the sidecar wheel brake. Single master cylinder so ABS works ok. Have it set up with a proportioning valve to help it stop straight in rapid braking.

 

[WeeWilly]

I wonder how the control algorithms for the DCT will deal with the physical changes of the added car? They are rather complex and built around a 2-wheel plant. I hope they're robust enough to not cause any problems.

 

[DoubleThumper]

I wonder how the control algorithms for the DCT will deal with the physical changes of the added car? They are rather complex and built around a 2-wheel plant. I hope they're robust enough to not cause any problems.

It is somewhat amazing to think of those undersized dual clutch friction plates pulling the extra load without any long term extra wear and tear on plate management. If Honda engineering did their motion control system design and implementation well, hopefully it will remain a moot point.

 

[WeeWilly]

It is somewhat amazing to think of those undersized dual clutch friction plates pulling the extra load without any long term extra wear and tear on plate management. If Honda engineering did their motion control system design and implementation well, hopefully it will remain a moot point.

Hey DT. I think your experience will go something like this. For a while the drive train will work hard to make the ensemble "act" like a 2-wheel plant. In reality, it will be spending more of its life counts than engineered driving the more massive & dissociative system around the block. The result will be earlier replacement of failed or critical on-board system than the manual shows. Some of these will be a surprise!

Now, if you were in a manual...you would feel/sense the change in mechanical characteristics before the trouble. Maybe not so much in a DCT.

As an informed aerospace engineer, I would not choose a DCT for this transition. I would start with a manual and see how it goes. If things go well, you can inform us about your trip around the world.

Best...

 

[DoubleThumper]

Hey DT. I think your experience will go something like this. For a while the drive train will work hard to make the ensemble "act" like a 2-wheel plant. In reality, it will be spending more of its life counts than engineered driving the more massive & dissociative system around the block. The result will be earlier replacement of failed or critical on-board system than the manual shows. Some of these will be a surprise!

Now, if you were in a manual...you would feel/sense the change in mechanical characteristics before the trouble. Maybe not so much in a DCT.

As an informed aerospace engineer, I would not choose a DCT for this transition. I would start with a manual and see how it goes. If things go well, you can inform us about your trip around the world.

Best...

Yeah, I am sure there is a price to be paid - somewhere.

At least for now, some owners - mostly in Europe - seem to be clocking up several hundreds of thousands of kilometers on the earlier generation DCTs. That is promising.

 

[Beowulf]

It will be an interesting journey...

I think dropping the gearing a bit will help the DCT out, a little.

There is a set of videos on YouTube of a guy with a 2016 AT with DCT flogging it up babyhead hill on the WA BDR. I contacted him, since I was going to use the same builder. His DCT held up to a lot of abuse, so far, without a gear reduction.

I think part of it, is feeling when the clutch fully engages, vs letting it slip for extended periods on hills.

Time will tell, for sure, but for now, it seems pretty happy

 

[Beowulf]

Daughter in law and grand kid approved! Many ride requests honored...